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  1. #121
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbyagain View Post
    Hmmm... well I like that Muslim women are modest mostly for starts, and men too, but that stems with all of the other things that are important to me. I remember somewhere in the Bible, if somebody knows the scripture I am talking about that would be great, it says women should have their hair or face covered in church. It also says that women shouldn't teach men. So in that case, it seems the Bible teaches the same thing, but a large amount of Christians don't follow it. I don't know why Muslims follow that law and Christians don't.
    Here are the verses I know of:

    1 Corinthians 11:3-5: Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved.

    1 Corinthians 11:16: If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.

    The teachings in the bible on head coverings for women are open to interpretation (like most things in the Bible). The church I grew up in interpreted them to mean that a woman's hair was her head covering and should be kept long and never shorn. I was not allowed to cut my hair as a young woman. Other churches do interpret it as necessitating a head covering besides the hair, either all the time or just in church; I believe Orthodox women wear head coverings in church, maybe some do at all times, I'm not sure.

  2. #122
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I know you didn't ask me. But I feel it's unfair to women. Just as it's unfair that female Muslims don't have 72 male virgins waiting for them in Heaven.
    Agreed.

    Personally, I sometimes theoretically consider becoming a muslin in order to have my personal harem in a socially acceptable way, with women conditioned to accept their situation as 'normal'.

    Then I'd consider it Allah's will and would act in accordance to the divine commandment, like a good ol' muslin.

    As for why a woman used to having civil rights would sacrifice that and risk ending up in that position, I still can't grasp that notion. I guess that's the kind of thing people take for granted, and sometimes we need to lose something in order to properly recognize its value.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Yeah.. I had a conversation with some Djibs about why they marry multiple women. They said that Islam law states that divorce is so severe that it's just easier to re-marry, or multi-marry, than to divorce and marry a whole new person.
    A big rationalization, I'd say.
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    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbyagain View Post
    Yes, I knew there were going to be problems with this thread, but I am looking to get these questions answered and I am having trouble finding Muslims. Don't know where they are... So I thought I would try here.
    If you're serious about being a Muslim, perhaps here was not the best place to bring the issue up. You're probably better off discussing this on a forum more dedicated to the subject. Here's a forum that might be more of assistance to you: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum

    Catholic and Lutheran are not much different.
    Lutheranism is a kind of "Catholicism lite" if I had to describe the differences between the two. Another option is to look at the Orthodox Church or even Eastern Catholic.

  4. #124
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Agreed.

    Personally, I sometimes theoretically consider becoming a muslin in order to have my personal harem in a socially acceptable way, with women conditioned to accept their situation as 'normal'.

    Then I'd consider it Allah's will and would act in accordance to the divine commandment, like a good ol' muslin.

    As for why a woman used to having civil rights would sacrifice that and risk ending up in that position, I still can't grasp that notion. I guess that's the kind of thing people take for granted, and sometimes we need to lose something in order to properly recognize its value.
    And to think @Newbyagain thinks I am "disgusting troll" or whatever. Islam is one of the most sexually oriented (I won't say "perverted" yet) dogmas on the planet Earth. Evidence: read up on some of Sir Richard Burton's Mid-east travel journals. One of the major attractions for Sir Burton had to do with his intense prurient interest in the religion: the dancing women, the multiple wives, concubines, marrying girls at an extremely young age. For me, religion is not about sex, it never has been about sex, and it never will be about sex. And yet I am the disgusting one?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #125
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Oh, and asking a Muslim to help you decide about becoming a Muslim is like asking a Mormon to help you decide about becoming a Mormon.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #126
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    ...yeah? I would probably want to consult at least one Mormon, too, were I considering converting to Mormonism. I don't see the problem there.

  7. #127
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    This person is so deeply conservative and so dogmatical that so far, my (educated) guesses remain that:

    1/ Either it is already a muslim guy trying to proselytise in a hidden way. The way s/he vastly idealizes the so-called morality of muslim countries and the way s/he express a kind of blind Arab chauvinism is a big hint.

    2/ Either s/he will soon join the most conservative and/or extremist Muslim sects (not the Sufis, not the liberal, friendly ones). And by that, I mean the salafis, and therefore, Al Qaïda.

    B'slama sayidati!
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #128
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    ...yeah? I would probably want to consult at least one Mormon, too, were I considering converting to Mormonism. I don't see the problem there.
    There's nothing wrong with consulting someone who is objective about it.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #129
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    This person is so deeply conservative and so dogmatical that so far, my (educated) guesses remain so far that:

    1/ Either it is already a muslim guy trying to proselytise in a hidden way. The way s/he idealizes muslim countries and the way s/he express a kind of blind Arab chauvinism is a big hint.

    2/ Either s/he will soon join the most conservative and/or extremist Muslim groups (not the Sufis, not the liberal, friendly ones). And by that, I mean the salafis, and therefore, Al Qaïda.
    So s/he is the real troll here?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #130
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbyagain View Post
    The last part, as of right now I don't know if it would be a good fit, but I know I love reading Muslim quotes, I like being around Muslim people, I definitely do agree and relate to a lot of their virtues and my intuition tells me it could possibly be what is right for me. But again, I don't know yet.
    I am not a Muslim, was raised Catholic, but left any semblance of Christianity long ago. Still, to this day the most beautiful descriptions of the divine I have seen come from Islam. As others have already pointed out, however, there is a big difference between theoretical Islam and how it is practiced by actual believers. Much of this is cultural rather than theological, but that doesn't make it any more palatable or reasonable. I am encouraged to see progressive Muslims promoting the value of a more figurative and positive interpretation of Islam, as has been done with Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Newbyagain View Post
    Hmmm... well I like that Muslim women are modest mostly for starts, and men too, but that stems with all of the other things that are important to me. I remember somewhere in the Bible, if somebody knows the scripture I am talking about that would be great, it says women should have their hair or face covered in church. It also says that women shouldn't teach men. So in that case, it seems the Bible teaches the same thing, but a large amount of Christians don't follow it. I don't know why Muslims follow that law and Christians don't.
    Do you agree with limiting the roles for women in spiritual life? The attitude and practice of modesty for both sexes is quite different from rules which constrain the participation of women in worship and learning. I, for one, can appreciate the former while having no patience whatsoever with the latter. Yes, the Bible and the Quran have similar prescriptions for men and women, growing out of similar cultures and era. The fact that Christians do not follow it in practice in many cases is indicative of a shift from a literal to a figurative interpretation based on an understanding of the context in which the practices were originally laid out. Polygamy, for instance, makes a certain sense in a society where men are scarce due to warring, and laws or customs limit the agency of an "unattached" woman. Restore the male/female balance and acknowledge legal personhood/authority of women, and it becomes unnecessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    One of the reasons I suggested the Amish was because to me they actually seem like the most similar Christian group to Muslims in the United States, not just because of modesty and structure, but because they literally live apart from modern ways, and this living apart from modern ways has had a heavy influence on Islam in Asia, which is why you see such conservatism coming from there.
    This is one reason I usually consider LDS (Mormons) most similar to Islam, especially the more fundamentalist groups who still practice polygamy and really emphasize the whole gender role separation.

    Now more generally @ the OP: Much about your question and your search seems externally driven. You mention disappointment in how others of various churches/faith traditions lack discipline and commitment, have low standards, and don't take it seriously. You are looking for an external system of rules to give structure to your life, or at least your spirituality. You value support from others in a community. There is nothing inherently wrong with any of this, the problem lies in what seems to be lacking, namely some internal compass.

    No one can believe for you, and it is unwise to try to make yourself believe something just because others do, or say you should. This doesn't mean your beliefs can't or won't be influenced by the ideas and example of others. We are always learning from others, but the conclusions we draw from that input must come from within ourselves. No one can give us the answers, and anyone who claims that ability is just plain wrong. Also, you do not need external standards to demonstrate the discipline and virtues you value. Get used to living up to your own internal standards, and setting the example for others. Doing something because you value it, because you really believe it is the right thing, is always a better motivation than doing it just because it is "the rules".

    Understand, too, that spirituality has a theological/philosopical dimension, and a cultural dimension. You can visit Catholic churches the world over, for instance, and see a huge variety in how that faith is expressed, while the basic doctrine and rituals will be the same. What this means is you really have two questions to address: (1) what do you really believe? and (2) what kind of practice do you prefer for expressing that belief? If a group or church fits the second requirement but not the first, you will quickly run into problems.

    To answer the first, I would suggest reading. Read Christian literature, and Muslim, and even other things. You will start to see common threads that make sense, and ones that don't. Don't feel at this point that your beliefs must match up 100% with anything. Just focus on figuring out what they are. To answer the second, visit religious groups, meetings, services, etc. Ask friends of other faiths or churches to take you along. Most will be happy to do so. You might find you like how things are done in a certain synagogue, or Quaker meeting, even though you don't share their specific beliefs. Ultimately you can put the two together, and look for your best-fit congregation, knowing you won't find a perfect fit. You will understand what you can compromise on, though, and what you can't. Understand, too, that once you find a church or community, you will have the opportunity to influence it with your ideas and presence, but that may take some time to accomplish.

    All of this can be daunting to do on your own. If possible, share your search with a friend, perhaps one questioning his/her own spirituality. Whether you end up in the same place or not, you can share your journey together, keep each other accountable, bounce ideas off each other, even attend events together. Ultimately, though, there is no escaping the internal work necessary to get one's spirituality on the right footing. As Doreen Valiente wrote in Charge of the Goddess:
    And you who seek to know Me, know that the seeking and yearning will avail you not, unless you know the Mystery: for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without.
    P.S. You might find The Faith Club by Ranya Idliby, Suzanne Oliver, and Priscilla Warner worthwhile.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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