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  1. #1
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Default Why Jesus died for our sins; Or, has zago finally gone off the deep end?

    Finding myself bored yesterday, I fired up Netflix and tried to find something to watch. I decided I was in the mood for standup comedy and gave a Doug Stanhope special a try. I wasn't at all sure about this decision, though. I've begun to find comedians to be very angry, vitriolic people and Stanhope is one of the leaders of the pack. On the other hand, this is one of the few places to find someone being real about this sham society we live in, so I gave it a try.

    Stanhope had a mixture of good points and bad. I thoroughly agreed with his assessment of people drugging themselves with stimulants, anti-depressants, and boner pills to force themselves through terribly boring lives. However, I soon disagreed when he began talking about the necessity of drug abuse and depraved behavior to add character to life. He scorns the idea, for instance, that a promiscuous girl would take a look at herself and realize that she is promiscuous because of her inner insecurity. He would rather just have her admit that she has an exceptional hunger for dick.

    Anyway, I thought a lot about all of these things and found that I could see through whatever needed to be seen through (god help people who believe this stuff), except for one thing. Stanhope had a little segment about how it makes no sense that Jesus would die for our sins, and I couldn't figure out whether I thought he was right or wrong. He compared it to getting kicked in the nuts for someone's mortgage, I think - totally unconnected things.

    Now it hits me, and it is fairly simple, but it seems like we never get a straight answer from the church or society. Jesus dying for our sins was symbolic of god's unconditional love for humanity - he loves us so much that he would send himself down to Earth and let us judge him and punish him without protest. He has given us the ultimate freedom - the freedom to hate and desecrate him and his creations. Despite this he still loves us and forgives us always. That he died for our sins means he has proven once and for all that he even loves us at our absolute worst.

    I still wonder a lot of things, there's a lot I don't know. What does this mean in the larger context? In the old testament, god called himself jealous and was known to smite the shit out of some people. Was the sacrifice of Jesus indeed symbolic that he was allowing humanity to evolve to a higher level of freedom and godliness? Has he really avoided interference with the world since then? I don't know much of the new testament after the gospels. Neither do I know the intentions of god or if he even has any, but I can clearly see the symbolic truth that is present here. I see god as existence itself--bare, empty existence. I think there are certain absolutes that go along with such a reality, including the potentials for self awareness, infinite manifestations, and within that, the freedom even to wish for existence not to exist. ALL possibilities exist or at least have the ability to be manifested. ALL of them, even the bad ones.

    Deep thoughts. REALLLLLY deep thoughts.

  2. #2

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    Some peoples say it is written by the god,

  3. #3
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Drugs?

  4. #4
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    The sacrificial lamb runs concurrent with most religious thought I've come across. Even Buddhism has Buddha sacrificing his body so that we won't have to.

  5. #5
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    ... He compared it to getting kicked in the nuts for someone's mortgage, I think - totally unconnected things.

    Now it hits me, and it is fairly simple, but it seems like we never get a straight answer from the church or society. Jesus dying for our sins was symbolic of god's unconditional love for humanity - he loves us so much that he would send himself down to Earth and let us judge him and punish him without protest. He has given us the ultimate freedom - the freedom to hate and desecrate him and his creations. Despite this he still loves us and forgives us always. That he died for our sins means he has proven once and for all that he even loves us at our absolute worst.
    I agree, he didn't really make a fair comparison on that one. Of course, his role is just to take something everyone knows and try to put a funny spin on it. Accuracy helps make it funnier, but since our culture is not as Biblically literate nowadays, people don't as easily discern the difference.

    I still wonder a lot of things, there's a lot I don't know. What does this mean in the larger context? In the old testament, god called himself jealous and was known to smite the shit out of some people. Was the sacrifice of Jesus indeed symbolic that he was allowing humanity to evolve to a higher level of freedom and godliness? Has he really avoided interference with the world since then? I don't know much of the new testament after the gospels.
    Well, a lot of it was explication by Paul where he attempts to build a bridge between the Old Testament and the Gospels / his knowledge of Jesus. He also tried to bring Jesus' message to Gentiles, who might not have had the OT knowledge that the Jews did as a starting point. There's a few other books attributed to a handful of Jesus' disciplines. And there's the Book of Revelation; overall, the Jews seemed to believe that Jesus was returning... and returning shortly.

    Neither do I know the intentions of god or if he even has any, but I can clearly see the symbolic truth that is present here. I see god as existence itself--bare, empty existence. I think there are certain absolutes that go along with such a reality, including the potentials for self awareness, infinite manifestations, and within that, the freedom even to wish for existence not to exist. ALL possibilities exist or at least have the ability to be manifested. ALL of them, even the bad ones.
    The OT and NT describes God as active and personal, rather than void, although there might seem to be differences in character that Christianity has always attempted to reconcile. so I don't think the Bible sees God as bare, empty existence. There's also the nature of autonomy vs God being in control of all things, and since we have set the two up in Western thought as contradictory, arguments trying to reconcile the two seem unfulfilling.

    But I personally see the world as full of a free range of options, and structure as imposed on what matter exists and eventually breaking down. it's just that human beings might be limited to their choices (as opposed to 100% full range) due to upbringing / cultural imprint, and context, and language.


    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    The sacrificial lamb runs concurrent with most religious thought I've come across. Even Buddhism has Buddha sacrificing his body so that we won't have to.
    Yup, that theme seems to run across a large variety of belief -- it seems to be a generally revered "human" value if there is such a thing.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #6
    Senior Member Snoopy22's Avatar
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    Because God sent him to die for our sins, he also asked that if it was his will, that this cup should pass from him (perhaps he won’t be as accepting of all our little excuses as many of us would like to believe). One simple reason of many.

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    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    This is actually the question I addressed initially in my blog. It took seven long installments to do it, so I won't re-try here, but I do invite you to go over and read if you like [it's in the NF blog section on this forum]. If you do decide to read, go to the beginning entry and read the first seven or so. I did take a sidestep to answer a few questions about other topics along the way. I did it in analogy form, but the concept is basically the same. I can't say that I have answered your questions, but perhaps I may have said something that you could use for fueling your own conclusions.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  8. #8
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    America sounds like the worst mental case you could receive as the new intern at the asylum.

    I'm joking of course, I think all countries are like that to a greater or lesser degree.

    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  9. #9
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    America sounds like the worst mental case you could receive as the new intern at the asylum.

    I'm joking of course, I think all countries are like that to a greater or lesser degree.
    *nod*

    "Simply the worst..."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #10
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    i realize your playing with this on a conceptual level, but it might be worth point out that despite pedantic legal record keeping which remains to this day, all investigations into roman ruins here have failed to find anything that can be indicated to be him. the only terrorist on death row without a criminal record.

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