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  1. #11
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    Jesus died to redeem us from Original Sin.

    Original Sin was committed by Eve and Adam in the Garden of Eden, and since then all children have been born in Original Sin.

    But Genetics tells us there was no Eve and Adam, so we can deduce there was no Original Sin and no children are born in Original Sin.

    So we must look elsewhere for an explanation for the death of Jesus.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    So we must look elsewhere for an explanation for the death of Jesus.
    And we don't have to look far.

    For the three Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam were founded by a God when he ordered Abraham to tie up his son Isaac and slaughter him.

    So the Abrahamic religions were founded by a child abusing God.

    And then this same God went on to torture his own Son to death.

    And today we have one of these child abusing religions in the dock of the Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Child Abuse.

  3. #13
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    Um, duh, it's about unconditional love, but congratulations on finally getting it.

    I shouldn't be so nasty. I was born and raised in the South, forced to go to Sunday school, have actually read the Bible (yes I know what it says) and in my adult life admire and glean the wisdom from the underlying New Testament truths that are also present in Taoism and Zen Buddhism, for starters.

    NO, I was sitting on the beach today, thinking "I deserve good things, not because I am perfect or "good" but because I am a child of God. And all people deserve good things, because they are all children of God. And if every person on the planet realized this, they'd stop hurting each other and God's creation, and things would be as they are meant to be."

    All sin is is separation from God. That's why pride is the blackest/deadliest sin in Catholocism, because it's the illusion that you don't need God. And Satan is the master of illusion, and in Hinduism Maya means illusion, the illusion of suffering.

    I actually learned all this via studying Taoism and yoga (which tends to lean on forms of Hinduism and Zen Buddhism for its truths, and Zen Buddhism is influenced by Taoism, that's what separates it from "regular Buddhism" and some people think that Jesus and therefore Christianity is influenced by Jesus studying in the far East with the Buddhists and Hindus).

    I'm actually thankful for my background in Christianity because it gives me a "comparative religion" without having to take the course, which is intellectually helpful.

    No really, congratulations on finally realizing it, I wish everyone would. I'm sorry for my snarkiness.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Um, duh, it's about unconditional love,
    Rather than being about unconditional love, its about power and absolute power over women and children.

    There is only one person who will love you unconditionally and that is your mother.

    But if our mother was unable to love us unconditionally, we can fantasize about a God who loves us unconditionally.

    The problem with fantasizing about a God rather than mourning the loss of a mother's unconditional love, is that we are less likely to be able to love our own children unconditionally.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Rather than being about unconditional love, its about power and absolute power over women and children.

    There is only one person who will love you unconditionally and that is your mother.

    But if our mother was unable to love us unconditionally, we can fantasize about a God who loves us unconditionally.

    The problem with fantasizing about a God rather than mourning the loss of a mother's unconditional love, is that we are less likely to be able to love our own children unconditionally.
    Um, no.

    Leaving the forum again. Take care.


    Good luck on getting it. I suggest Taoism. Because it makes the "concept" or "idea" of God god-less, non-human and impersonal, but ever-present and the formless thing that gives all things form. I think Ni types really like this (while Si types love their human-esque God). I think that's why I finally got it. And I wonder still if you dear Victor are in the Fi/Ni loop from the depths of hell.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    ever-present and the formless thing that gives all things form.
    A formless thing, ever-present, watching me all the time, even when I am asleep, and won't even let me go in death - I am going to have to talk to my therapist about this.

  7. #17
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    If you allow someone to kill you, you're showing an extraordinary willingness to let them do as they please. An extraordinary willingness to let someone do as they please can easily be an expression of malevolence, as when you choose to allow someone to bring harm onto themselves. This is particularly true when that harm comes onto them through a pitfall that you deliberately set in their path. There is no particular reason that God has to punish people for performing certain acts. Purely by manipulating circumstances, he could make every human endeavor harmless or rewarding. But instead he chooses to fill the world with unnecessary suffering, punishing people for breaking the most arbitrary laws imaginable. He didn't need to set these laws in place; if, purely as a matter of taste, he couldn't bear not to inact them, he still might have stopped us from breaking them, and saved himself cause for anger and violence. And he could have done this without causing the slightest harm to his favorite pet (or theologians' favorite pet), freedom. If I exercise force on you or cut you off from the choices that would otherwise be available to you, I don't diminish your freedom in the least--on the contrary, a person never feels his freedom more keenly than when he is a slave or a prisoner. Instead, anger and violence are the norm for God, or so the Bible tells us. God drowned every living thing on the planet except those aboard a small boat, and right now there are countless billions roasting in the eternal torture chamber of hell. And yet so many Christians will seize upon this one tiny act of God letting people kill his son--it really is a tiny act compared with all of suffering that God has instigated--and say it proves that he is a wonderful and loving God. In my opinion, the only thing it proves is that he's a lunatic. "I will let you kill my son, so that I may then permit myself to refrain from torturing you in hell forever, provided you choose to worship and serve me." It's ridiculous and a completely unnecessary bother. And how on earth letting someone murder you and then sending them off to hell demonstrates that you love them is a real mystery to me; murder is as far from a consummation of love as anything can get. And Jesus's crucifixion has nothing whatsoever to do with me, anyway--I'm not the one who murdered him--you can't tell me that I brought about an event that occurred 2000 years before I was born. I don't even wish Jesus had been murdered; I would have liked for everyone to have been nice to him. If I'm not guilty of murdering Jesus and, in fact, never even met the man, I can not be condemned for his death. If I'm not the one who murdered Jesus, then with regard to forgiveness, I'm in exactly the same position I would be in if I had lived thousands of years before his appearance on this earth or if he had never walked this earth at all. That is to say, Jesus's crucifixion neither gave me something to be forgiven for, nor did it involve me making any sort of amends for the things I have done. What it did was give God an unnecessary excuse to forgive unnecessary sins.

    If I were to say that Jesus's crucifixion is meant to stand for something, I would say that it's meant to stand for the suffering that we cause God by disobeying him.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  8. #18
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
    If you allow someone to kill you, you're showing an extraordinary willingness to let them do as they please. An extraordinary willingness to let someone do as they please can easily be an expression of malevolence, as when you choose to allow someone to bring harm onto themselves. This is particularly true when that harm comes onto them through a pitfall that you deliberately set in their path. There is no particular reason that God has to punish people for performing certain acts. Purely by manipulating circumstances, he could make every human endeavor harmless or rewarding. But instead he chooses to fill the world with unnecessary suffering, punishing people for breaking the most arbitrary laws imaginable. He didn't need to set these laws in place; if, purely as a matter of taste, he couldn't bear not to inact them, he still might have stopped us from breaking them, and saved himself cause for anger and violence. And he could have done this without causing the slightest harm to his favorite pet (or theologians' favorite pet), freedom. If I exercise force on you or cut you off from the choices that would otherwise be available to you, I don't diminish your freedom in the least--on the contrary, a person never feels his freedom more keenly than when he is a slave or a prisoner. Instead, anger and violence are the norm for God, or so the Bible tells us. God drowned every living thing on the planet except those aboard a small boat, and right now there are countless billions roasting in the eternal torture chamber of hell. And yet so many Christians will seize upon this one tiny act of God letting people kill his son--it really is a tiny act compared with all of suffering that God has instigated--and say it proves that he is a wonderful and loving God. In my opinion, the only thing it proves is that he's a lunatic. "I will let you kill my son, so that I may then permit myself to refrain from torturing you in hell forever, provided you choose to worship and serve me." It's ridiculous and a completely unnecessary bother. And how on earth letting someone murder you and then sending them off to hell demonstrates that you love them is a real mystery to me; murder is as far from a consummation of love as anything can get. And Jesus's crucifixion has nothing whatsoever to do with me, anyway--I'm not the one who murdered him--you can't tell me that I brought about an event that occurred 2000 years before I was born. I don't even wish Jesus had been murdered; I would have liked for everyone to have been nice to him. If I'm not guilty of murdering Jesus and, in fact, never even met the man, I can not be condemned for his death. If I'm not the one who murdered Jesus, then with regard to forgiveness, I'm in exactly the same position I would be in if I had lived thousands of years before his appearance on this earth or if he had never walked this earth at all. That is to say, Jesus's crucifixion neither gave me something to be forgiven for, nor did it involve me making any sort of amends for the things I have done. What it did was give God an unnecessary excuse to forgive unnecessary sins.

    If I were to say that Jesus's crucifixion is meant to stand for something, I would say that it's meant to stand for the suffering that we cause God by disobeying him.
    Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuck that was hard to read. But look, I did anyway 'cause it was some smart stuff. Consider your audience - organize your thoughts.

    My thoughts:

    I recently experienced (and currently) a lot of anger towards god, and it appears (at least) that you relate. Why would he do this to me? Why would he make me suffer?

    I dunno. Maybe you're right.

    Then again, I'm holding out on this one. I'm not sure the pain we experience in this life is such a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Would the universe truly be infinite without the experience of pain? Would it truly be infinite without the experience of separation, of disobedience?

    There's other ways to look at it even still. Look at how a good parent raises a child. Does he shield the child from every single bad experience? Of course not. He knows that in the end it is best for the child to learn and cry some tears occasionally. Maybe this sort of world is even more fulfilling than one where everything is good. Maybe it is more exotic.. more to experience.

    Would we be able to play this play at all without the illusion of choice?

  9. #19
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    "Organized thought" is an oxymoron.

    I love Yahweh, because without him there would be no such thing as that epitome of psychological insight called the third book of Genesis. I also hate him, because he's a bit of a jerk and has inspired a lot of other people to be jerks, as well.

    While a parent can't rid the world of suffering and so might feel compelled to allow difficult lessons to be learned by a child that the child might be better prepared for life, God can prevent suffering altogether. The human parent has a good reason to expose his child to certain forms of suffering; God does not. The idea that a world with pain might be more fulfilling than one where there is no pain is one that I reject as a justification for suffering. If God is omnipotent, there is nothing stopping him from creating a world with no pain in it and plenty of fulfillment. (What you said exemplifies one of the peculiarities of theological argumentation: one moment, a theologian will say that God is omnipotent, and next thing you know, the theologian will start making arguments that assume there are limitations on God's power. I realize that what you said wasn't an argument so much as it was free speculation, but it illustrates one of the things that bugs me about theology, and I wanted to point it out.)

    It's possible for something to matter very little in the grand scheme of things and yet, on a personal level, be very pressing indeed.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
    While a parent can't rid the world of suffering and so might feel compelled to allow difficult lessons to be learned by a child that the child might be better prepared for life, God can prevent suffering altogether. The human parent has a good reason to expose his child to certain forms of suffering; God does not.
    Natural Selection proceeds by reproduction.

    Natural Selection cares not a whit about our suffering, as long as we reproduce.

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