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  1. #1
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Default Is there Enlightenment?

    I say no. But that's because I'm saying so.

  2. #2
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    I say yes.

    The notion of enlightenment is not mystical, and it really makes sense if you don't get misled by the ocean of misconceptions surrounding it.

    Basically I am to understand that enlightenment is a state of having transcended the egoic filter. Most people try to control their experience - they fearfully try to avoid future pain and greedily grasp at future pleasure and comfort.

    The enlightened one is aware of the illusory and highly fallible nature of thought. He sees the truth that the universe is utterly unpredictable; any attempt to control it is futile and only leads to extra strain.

    He also understands the divisive nature of thought, and the ultimate insufficiency of language itself, which tends to chop reality up into segments. Any thought based, conceptual definition is always incomplete... lacking the full context. Thus, the enlightened one doesn't take thoughts or arguments too seriously, knowing that only a tiny fragment of the picture is on display. His decision making tends to be more flowing, more intuitive/instinctual. His objective reality is what he feels - his subjective reality. He acknowledges that this could mean he is in fact insane, but also understands on a deeper level that there really is no way of knowing all of the objective truth, and to try is a pointless endeavor.

    Furthermore, this is possible because he doesn't take life too seriously, as he knows it ends. People get so angry and worried and sad about worldly problems. The enlightened one realizes that there will never be any other time to enjoy but the present, no matter how many things seem wrong.

    I've been a seeker since 2007 (when I began to have a series of spiritual experiences), I used to do a lot of meditation, and now I mostly just reflect and listen to talks by my favorite teachers, not because I think it will get me anything, but because I just like to. I have not had a moment of permanent awakening, but to be entirely honest, I think I will. I realize that this is supposedly the "incorrect" belief to have, but it is what I believe nonetheless. Maybe one day, that belief will fall away... but then again, wouldn't that suffice to confirm it?

    Who knows. Maybe, maybe not. I currently follow it, though, for better or worse.

  3. #3
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Default

    I mean, think about it - how much is out there that we don't know? Just how arrogant are we in what we believe about the universe?

    My stance is: incredibly. There is a universe out there of trillions upon trillions of stars. We live on some backwater planet in space, in some backwater moment in time. I think if we knew the full truth of reality, our heads would surely explode.

    What's really cool, though, is that we are the products of a good 3 billion years of evolution. That can be relied upon to a far greater extent than people know. The brain is remarkably plastic, and the subconscious, as a neuroscientist once put it, makes the conscious look like the coins in a person's pocket as compared to the U.S. annual GDP.

    In other words, you don't ever have to "figure out" the answer. Doing what feels right regardless of having any logical reason, 99.99999 percent of the time (if not 100), will give you a totally awesome outcome, and without the awful stress of self-doubt. The spiritual path is the coming to trust in this.

    As the saying goes, "let go and let god."

  4. #4
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Default

    I say no - saying that you wake up one day, cross a line and reach a point where you are suddenly "enlightened" seems deluded.

  5. #5
    Just a note... LittleV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Basically I am to understand that enlightenment is a state of having transcended the egoic filter.
    I agree with this; although reaching this state may more or less require maintaining effort, depending on one’s level of personal interference.
    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    The enlightened one is aware of the illusory and highly fallible nature of thought.
    …And does not declare absolutes or speak when emotionally compromised or entangled with safeguarded biases. One would meditate before potentially haphazardly negatively influencing one’s fellow living organisms.
    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    He also understands the divisive nature of thought, and the ultimate insufficiency of language itself, which tends to chop reality up into segments. Any thought based, conceptual definition is always incomplete... lacking the full context. Thus, the enlightened one doesn't take thoughts or arguments too seriously, knowing that only a tiny fragment of the picture is on display.
    He engages in open-mindedness and both appreciates and forgives conflicting realities.
    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    His decision making tends to be more flowing, more intuitive/instinctual. His objective reality is what he feels - his subjective reality. He acknowledges that this could mean he is in fact insane, but also understands on a deeper level that there really is no way of knowing all of the objective truth, and to try is a pointless endeavor.
    The antithesis of a statement does not necessarily negate its significance, with the recognition of ever-changing perspectives. Everything is inter-connected; syntheses could emerge, but could also be undone. The acceptance of oneself as nothing but a moving lens could open oneself to the self/others, and discover freedom from both subjectivity and objectivity. It is an ongoing process that becomes more automatic throughout time and practice. Scientifically, I’d consider this to be the consistent cooperation between the central and peripheral nervous system in peaceful response to the dynamic environment.

  6. #6
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    it means becoming aware of things that are as they are. we become enlightened by all sorts of things all the time
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  7. #7
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    enlightenment isn't usually an ah-hah moment. It progresses slowly over time so slow you don't even realize it's happening, so no you don't wake up one day enlightened you spend your whole life becoming enlightened. If you keep an open mind, than you die.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  8. #8
    Just a note... LittleV's Avatar
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    Subjective realities at their finest; this is why I’d find aggressively overblown arguments in research to be unproductive in promoting the formation of ideas, while relentlessly spreading their own prejudices and inherent weaknesses.

  9. #9
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    if you are asking about the experience: yes - there is the experience of being enlightened, of reaching realizations which impact your world view so profoundly that you have a disturbance relating to your world view prior.

    ofcourse, that doesn't actually mean your new world view is better, or even true - it could be miles further away from the truth compared to the last one, it could be that what you think you've realized is entirely BS, it merely seems more true to you at the time.

  10. #10
    Just a note... LittleV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    ofcourse, that doesn't actually mean your new world view is better, or even true - it could be miles further away from the truth compared to the last one, it could be that what you think you've realized is entirely BS, it merely seems more true to you at the time.
    *nods*

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