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  1. #21
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    @Victor I'm not trying to argue doctrine nor was I referring to the doctrine of predestination ...I was strictly referring to the belief that the souls of men were predestined to exist and that the creator is the one that wills them into existence. I hold firm that it is a general consensus among Christians that the creator is in control of all life. Maybe you misunderstood something I posted but in no way shape or form was I referring to the Calvinist doctrine of predestination.

    What little I do know of the Calvinistic doctrine of predestination it's the belief that go has decided what was to become of each human before the earth was formed. In my post I didn't mean to interpret that to mean everything we do or say or ever will have is predestined such as the doctrine you speak of seems to suggest.I meant that the creator knows all we will do or say and what we will have. Knowing these things he has a plan of our lives or our soul. It is up to us to chose to live according to that plan or to chose another path but our very souls existence was predetermined by the will of the creator. There is a difference in saying all we will ever do say or become is predetermined there for our soul is predetermined and saying the creator has a plan for all we will ever do say or become therefore our very existence is predetermined. The later is the point I was trying to make. I don't know if this was any clearer. I'm finding this hard to articulate. Hopefully you were able to get the just of what I was saying through my muddied explanation.
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

  2. #22
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    I hold firm that it is a general consensus among Christians that the creator is in control of all life.
    This flies in the face of Natural Selection, confirmed by DNA.

    We have known the origin of species for 150 years, confirmed every day by the sequencing the the genome. So there is no need for anyone to be in control of all life.

    To claim there is a general consensus among Christians is once again special pleading of a particular sect of Christianity. For instance, Catholic Christians accept Natural Selection and Genetics as a scientific fact.

  3. #23
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    @Victor Does DNA and genetics and negate the existence of a soul? I loosely use the term all life in the sense that the Op asked the question regarding souls. Regardless generally is not an absolute and i was using it loosely such as the question was asked. There are over 30,000 known christian doctrines there is no way I can know( nor do i care to know) what each individual sect believes about the existence of a soul. Not even that but with in the mind of each person I'm sure there are many different variations of truth. So if you want to get that technical you have no way of knowing what each of those one billion Catholics generally believes within once doctrine. On a broader scale Catholicism is one sect of the 30k plus denominations. Obviously there is no way to know "generally" what they believe on the scope your talking about when it can't even be done with in one denomination. So if the words "General consensus" is what you find fault with then i'll use the phrase "Many Christians believe".
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

  4. #24
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The Doctrine of Predestination was invented by John Calvin in the 16th Century.

    And the Doctrine of Predestination has immensely influenced the USA, where prosperity is seen as proof of predestination for heaven. So money is santified by religion.

    The unfortunate corollary in the USA is that poverty is seen to be the moral fault of the poor. And the poor are seen as 'losers'.

    And the Calvinist Doctrine of Predestination is certainly not held as a general consensus among Christians.

    To say that the Calvinist Doctrine of Predestination is held as a general consensus among Christians, is special pleading by a sect of wealthy USA Christians, and is an egregious violation of the Christian virtue of Charity.
    I'm not going to waste my time correcting all your mistakes here. However, this is a demonstration of an incredibly thin and mistaken knowledge of predestination, John Calvin, and the USA even if there are proper criticisms of each. People would be better left to keeping their judgements to themselves when they can only muster such a superficial demonstration of knowledge.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #25
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Btw, I never answered the OP.

    All humans have souls thus when something becomes a human he or she would be presumed to have a soul.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I'm not going to waste my time correcting all your mistakes here. However, this is a demonstration of an incredibly thin and mistaken knowledge of predestination, John Calvin, and the USA even if there are proper criticisms of each. People would be better left to keeping their judgements to themselves when they can only muster such a superficial demonstration of knowledge.
    Go on, go on, attack the messenger and not the message.

  7. #27
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Go on, go on, attack the messenger and not the message.
    I don't think you can engage in more literal troll baiting than this.

    I never attacked the messenger so I don't know why you suddenly request that I do that. My quoted statement was merely my own observations about what you wrote paired with some generic advice.

    Since you now want to make yourself the subject of conversation I should mention you came off rather well when you just admitted you were wrong above. Perhaps the same outcome could have occurred here, but it's really annoying when someone can write out a few quick accusations and I have to devote considerable time and energy explaining why such claims are baseless.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #28
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I think Christians can and do believe everything from the soul pre-existing conception to the soul entering the body with a person's first breath and everything in between. IMO, you could make a case for any of that from the scriptures I'm familiar with (the Protestant cannon). It isn't really something that is addressed in any detail in the Bible, AFAIK. I think my denomination would say the soul comes into being at conception, although it's not something that is usually addressed outside of discussions of politics (specifically abortion law) and stillbirths.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I don't think you can engage in more literal troll baiting than this.
    And finally you fall back onto an insult.

  10. #30
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    So I know some would say that Mormons aren't Christian, but Mormon doctrine is that the soul/spirit is eternal, exists before conception even, and that it is simply united with a physical body so that an individual can experience all the unique and awesome sensations and situations that come with life in human form.

    I always thought that was pretty cool.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

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