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  1. #11
    ndovjtjcaqidthi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    What a hipster thing for a deity to say.
    I knew it.
    Everything makes sense now..

  2. #12
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    A literal soul is supernatural. And so far there is no evidence for the supernatural.

    However there is abundant evidence for the metaphorical soul. We find evidence in literature, in the stories and rituals of spoken cultures, and now we are finding evidence of the metaphorical soul in our electronic culture.

    Christianity speculates about a literal soul, but so far it is just speculation.

  3. #13
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    A literal soul is supernatural. And so far there is no evidence for the supernatural.

    However there is abundant evidence for the metaphorical soul. We find evidence in literature, in the stories and rituals of spoken cultures, and now we are finding evidence of the metaphorical soul in our electronic culture.

    Christianity speculates about a literal soul, but so far it is just speculation.
    For a long time humans have recognized the embodied soul that is revealed in literature, stories and rituals. But, now we have bodiless souls in cyberspace. Do you not see a difference? Does that not tell us something?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    For a long time humans have recognized the embodied soul that is revealed in literature, stories and rituals. But, now we have bodiless souls in cyberspace. Do you not see a difference? Does that not tell us something?
    Here we have a meeting of minds. For millennia Christianity has taught of pure spirits inhabiting heaven. Pure spirits are spirits outside of time and space and so without bodies. And as you so perceptively point out, here we are in cyberspace outside of time and space.

    The interesting thing is that it takes a while for our minds to catch up with the reality, so the content of our conversation is obsessively about time and space and our bodies.

    So we look in the rear vision mirror at time and space receding into the distance, while cyberspace is rushing through the windshield. It's too much for us to bear.

  5. #15
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Here we have a meeting of minds. For millennia Christianity has taught of pure spirits inhabiting heaven. Pure spirits are spirits outside of time and space and so without bodies. And as you so perceptively point out, here we are in cyberspace outside of time and space.
    That's not what my faith and tradition teaches nor any faith that cares about what the bible actually says. Our savior was raised from the dead. Not a soul only, but body and soul as doubting Thomas learned. Likewise, our bodies will be raised from the dead and join our souls so that we can spend eternity not in heaven, but on the new earth which we were made for.

    The Christian concept may only be metaphorical in your mind, but it has always been deeply tied to the material body. So we value the embodied soul and more and more are becoming concerned about the bodiless soul.

    The interesting thing is that it takes a while for our minds to catch up with the reality, so the content of our conversation is obsessively about time and space and our bodies.

    So we look in the rear vision mirror at time and space receding into the distance, while cyberspace is rushing through the windshield. It's too much for us to bear.
    That's because the whole human is far more perceptive than the bodiless soul. Once freed from the body the soul yearns for the unlimited and goes aimlessly flitting about in an endless wilderness while the embodied soul places reasonable limits on the soul that protects. In turn the embodied soul gives meaning to the body.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    That's not what my faith and tradition teaches nor any faith that cares about what the bible actually says. Our savior was raised from the dead. Not a soul only, but body and soul as doubting Thomas learned. Likewise, our bodies will be raised from the dead and join our souls so that we can spend eternity not in heaven, but on the new earth which we were made for.

    The Christian concept may only be metaphorical in your mind, but it has always been deeply tied to the material body. So we value the embodied soul and more and more are becoming concerned about the bodiless soul.



    That's because the whole human is far more perceptive than the bodiless soul. Once freed from the body the soul yearns for the unlimited and goes aimlessly flitting about in an endless wilderness while the embodied soul places reasonable limits on the soul that protects. In turn the embodied soul gives meaning to the body.
    Actually you are right and I am wrong. I was thinking of the Angels in heaven. And I understand they are pure spirits without material bodies.

    And of course the Communion of Saints, that's us, will be embodied with Christ on the last day.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    I would guess because God is an eternal Creator, from the beginning to the end, it makes sense that He would know you before He created you in the womb.

    Also, there is one instance where God more-or-less placed a soul into a being and that is Genesis 2:7, "Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."
    More less. He gives him life. If life is soul, then animals and plants have souls, too.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    Also, there is one instance where God more-or-less placed a soul into a being and that is Genesis 2:7, "Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."
    That refers to the birth of humanity, so it's assumed that God never does this again. (Adam was the first candle to be lit, and the light is passed on through procreation.) I would still think that the theory most compatible with Christian doctrine is that souls are received at the time of conception.

    Question for anyone reading this - in your opinion, when does a human being receive a soul? How do you define 'soul'?

  9. #19
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    I would think at the time of conception, since the Bible never mentions a soul being received; it's assumed that where there's human life, there's a soul. But this is confusing (at least to me) when you consider the verse "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you." Does this imply that each soul has always existed (as a facet of God?), yet only actualized in the form of a human being for a short time? Or just that each soul has always existed in the mind of God?
    The bold is exactly what came to mind.I have always understood that the souls of men that were,are and will be have always existed and will eternally exist. The creator is not bound by time and space as we are being that he is omnipresent alpha and omega. So a soul exist when he wills it to exist. I believe we are conceived in the will of god before we are even conceived in the womb.

    Jeremiah 1:5 New King James Version (NKJV)
    5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;Before you were born I sanctified you;I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

    In context god was revealing to Jeremiah his purpose and reassuring him of his divine plan for his life. If you read on you will find got telling Jeremiah not to be afraid and that what he(God) wills will come to pass.

    There is also Ephesians 1:4 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Again we see pre-destination here even before the original creation of the very foundation of the world.

    You could also look at John 15:1-16 It's too much to post but the basic idea is that there is nothing man kind can do to save it's self except they follow god. We are not saved by our own works but through the pre-determined will of god in us. I believe this also lends itself to pre-determination of a souls actual exsistance prior to our natural birth or conception.God is a transcending eternal being. The souls of men exist in and because of the will of God.God saves the souls of men according to his will. Gob being an transcendental eternal being has a transcendental eternal will. Our souls exist in and because of that will. Our souls must also be eternal and transcendental. In order to have a predetermined will to save our souls he must have had to predetermine our souls very even existence before that. If in fact we are saved or chosen in gods will we must exists in gods will also. To exist in a being that transcends the natural laws of time in space as we know...to exist in the eternal will of god our souls must also be eternal.( maybe not the clearest explanation but I tried)

    Regardless Palms 139 specifically verses 13-14 gives evidence that even in the womb god has a plan for the soul of a man. Palms 139: 13-14 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

    Anyway I think that is the general consensus among Christians.
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    Again we see pre-destination here even before the original creation of the very foundation of the world.

    Anyway I think that is the general consensus among Christians.
    The Doctrine of Predestination was invented by John Calvin in the 16th Century.

    And the Doctrine of Predestination has immensely influenced the USA, where prosperity is seen as proof of predestination for heaven. So money is santified by religion.

    The unfortunate corollary in the USA is that poverty is seen to be the moral fault of the poor. And the poor are seen as 'losers'.

    And the Calvinist Doctrine of Predestination is certainly not held as a general consensus among Christians.

    To say that the Calvinist Doctrine of Predestination is held as a general consensus among Christians, is special pleading by a sect of wealthy USA Christians, and is an egregious violation of the Christian virtue of Charity.

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