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  1. #81
    Senior Member Chiharu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'd not say "nearly every religion" I'd say every religion, there's no need to qualify it, because people are involved and people arent perfect, perfect religions or ideas, if there are such things arent going to fix that. And more often these things are channels than fixes anyway.

    Those are not simply weak arguments they're just plain wrong, its sort of what I've been trying to say about being a channel for other things, people who oppress or persecute do for deeper reasons than anything in religion or ideology. Considering religion the root of all evil is simple, I'm sure if evil could be as easily identified and dealt with as all that it'd have disappeared long ago. Its as stupid as any believer who'd think that non-belief is the root of all evil. What's meant by either and the actions which result is another question, I dont accept what you said about Christians persecuting a particular population there BTW, I think the issues surrounding that are much deeper and broader than religion but I dont think you're ready for that. The world isnt ready.
    Well I can't think of, say, violent persecution occurring at the hands of Jainists. I qualify things because I don't know everything, and even very accurate generalizations are still generalizations.

    And I'm not justifying the arguments or atheists or theists in that regard. But the logic and correctness of their beliefs doesn't matter. If they believe it, no matter how dumb it seems, and that belief motivates them, then in their own minds they are doing the right thing. That was my point.

    People are just dumb sometimes, and you can't force them to change. A lot of very stupid people have a lot of very good intentions and very strong convictions and then they fight for a very long time and life sucks very much until you are very dead. #yolo
    Be soft. Do not let the world make you hard. Do not let pain make you hate. Do not let the bitterness steal your sweetness." ― Kurt Vonnegut

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  2. #82
    Senior Member Idealatious's Avatar
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    I agree with someone who said that you could be labeled as a "militant atheistic" if you aggressively try to convert people (particularly if you weren't even in a critical debate setting at the time). I don't think it's necessary to refine the phrase militant atheism, because obviously, it was not created in reference to an actual military. Words have different meanings, particularly if we use them to build phrases that have their own new meanings. I wouldn't mind language evolving to call "militant atheists" by another term, but that doesn't mean the term doesn't exist.

    I do agree that most people should not aggressively try to convert or de-convert people (unless the other person asks you to try!). I mean, their religion or lack there of is their business. And I can understand wanting to convert people... thinking their beliefs are harmful, or what have you. I can empathize with the urgency of conversion that religious beliefs can make you feel - I mean, that person's going to go to hell if you don't convert them?? It's your god-given mission to save them, obviously!! As awful as that way of thought is (motivation = fear) and as much as I hate attempts to convert anyone... I can understand it making someone religious want to convert everyone.

    But some atheists are just so aggressive without any "good" (imo) reason. Like, do you think X will be, I don't know, wallowing in stupidity if you don't deconvert them? Okay, well... that's X's right. If you actually believe that an individual's religious belief directly causes harm, then... maybe. But that seems like a shaky argument. How would one Christian person be individually harming someone? (JUST the Christianity religion, not any beliefs that are perhaps related to Christianity but don't necessarily and always come with it) Now, arguing that societal religious belief causes harm is different - systemic effects of religion that are arguably very real and harmful. But that doesn't mean that you need to shout in that religious person's face and keep making snarky comments about how dumb and brainwashed they are.

    Besides, there are psychological benefits to religious belief that a lot of psychologists have historically overlooked... and I would hate to deprive anyone of their own happiness/mental stability/whatever gets them through life as long as they aren't hurting anyone else! Some loud/aggressive/militant atheists just annoy me because they aren't helping anyone... but loud/aggressive/militant religious people annoy me too, so whatever.

  3. #83
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Apatheism or apathic agnosticism is the future.

    Atheism is just another theistic belief that is an oxymoron in itself.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  4. #84
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Atheism is just another theistic belief that is an oxymoron in itself.
    The difference is an atheist would be willing to change their mind given enough evidence. I can´t say the same for theists.

    They are somewhat similar though on where they stand on a 7-point Likert scale, which is to say, opposite ends. However I do not know of, nor have I read-heard of any ¨absolute¨ atheists. A 1 on the Likert. The atheists that appear as 1´s are interpreting the question to mean human gods vs. a prime-mover. There is an abundance of 7s though on the opposite end however.

    If you care to search you will find that the ¨militant¨ atheists: Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennet & Harris will tell you themselves that they are not 100% sure there is no prime mover.

    FTR I consider myself a 2. There could be a god or gods out there, but I am not convinced based on the evidence. If there is one, I don´t think it´s one us humans have conceptualized.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Apatheism or apathic agnosticism is the future.


    Atheism is just another theistic belief that is an oxymoron in itself.

    I don't believe in supreme beings and an afterlife in exactly the same way that I don't believe in the tooth fairy and leprechauns. Some people tell me that atheism is a "belief system." I say: Fine, whatever. But then I guess that not believing in the tooth fairy and leprechauns is a "belief system" too.

    I simply was raised without any religious instruction at all. Then, in my twenties I dabbled with religion, read the Bible, went to church, prayed a little bit, etc. It was new to me, and I wanted to give it a fair tryout. But it was creepy. All of a sudden I was supposed to believe that there was a giant eye in the sky recording all my deeds and thoughts in order to hold them against me when I died. Very creepy. Very oppressive.

    So I put down the religious stuff and went back to my comfortable non-belief. Good riddance to the eye in the sky. I put the eye in the sky back in the closet with the fairies and leprechauns.

  6. #86
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    I figure, how could there not be a god? God is everything around us and us ourselves. Utterly huge, complex, and intelligent beyond all comprehension. Just 'cause that doesn't make you feel "spiritual" doesn't make it any less obvious. If people are trying to look for some dude in the sky who they can talk to, well... I guess I'm not surprised they think there's no god. They're just too disappointed with the former, they're like, "but it isn't what I think it should be! I can't grasp it! I should be able to grasp it! If I can't grasp it, I'll just say it isn't real!"

    What else would an omniscient god be but the entire universe? By definition, if something is omniscient, there can be no separation between it and anything else because that would make it not omniscient. God's the universe. Disappointing, I know, that you can't have an invisible best friend who is just like you but all powerful and tells you whatever you want to know and does you little favors when you ask really hard. Then again, you are a part of and you are all of god. Weird, isn't it? I don't understand it myself. Maybe one day.

    Militant atheists are just angry at the stupid bullshit that is organized religion, and they are under the delusion that they can use the exact same kind of bullshit to cure the bullshit. "Everyone must know the truth as I see it. Everyone must behave like I think they should. The new sin is to believe in god!"

    I feel bad for a guy like Richard Dawkins. He seems so frustrated with humanity, but it's like it is his own fault. All he needs to do is just let go and forget about the religious instead of actively seeking them out and repeatedly running himself into a brick wall trying to argue with them. Meanwhile those of us who don't care so much never really see these "crazy fundamentalists" too much, and when we do, we just leave them alone and forget about them, and things are fine. It's not pleasant to have the weight of the world on one's shoulders - especially the more you realize that your efforts to change it are always just met with resistance. Fuck militant atheism. If those guys really wanted to have an effect, they'd stfu about god and live the godless life that they claim is so great. Oh yeah, they have nothing without god. How ironic. Richard Dawkins would be a nobody to 99% of us without god. Tsk.

  7. #87
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    I've grown to where it pains me to read of some subjects, but today I decided to crack open Dawkins' The God Delusion. He pretty much destroys the concept of militant atheism. Good read, around page 70 or so.

  8. #88
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    It was the religious attack on the Twin Towers in New York that brought religion into sharp relief.

    We saw that Christianity had made its peace with the Enlightenment, Buddhism is also at peace with the Enlightenment, and Hinduism is at peace with the Enlightenment, and Chinese confucianism is at peace with half of the Enlightenment.

    However Islam has rejected the Enlightenment. The proof is that 57 Islamic nations have openly and publicly rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in favour of Sharia.

    And the Universal Declaration of Human Rights enshrines the values of the Enlightenment.

    But worse, there is a militant wing of Islam that valourises religious violence for political purposes.

    And so the violent religious attack on our values has brought a coherent, scholarly response from atheism.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    [...] Fuck militant atheism. If those guys really wanted to have an effect, they'd stfu about god and live the godless life that they claim is so great. [...]
    The answer is what Victor said here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    [...]And so the violent religious attack on our values has brought a coherent, scholarly response from atheism.[...]
    To put it another way: If the kids are playing peacefully, then fine, there’s no reason to get in their face. But when the kids start flinging feces and breaking windows, then sooner or later the adults have a responsibility to yell at them and tell them to grow the fuck up.

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    [...] God's the universe. [...]
    Sometimes a universe is just a universe.

  10. #90
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    To put it another way: If the kids are playing peacefully, then fine, there’s no reason to get in their face. But when the kids start flinging feces and breaking windows, then sooner or later the adults have a responsibility to yell at them and tell them to grow the fuck up.
    'Fraid that doesn't really make sense. So all religion is bad 'cause some morons did 9/11? Militant atheists are like "THIS IS WHAT RELIGION BRINGS." Uh, not really. Am I supposed to be impressed that 0.000000000000000001% of all religious people have committed a violent act in the name of religion which they probably would have done anyway because they are crazy in the first place? And ignore the good done in the name of religion, too? Riiiiiight, I'll get right on that. 'Cause I'm just that wise and morally superior.. someone make me the atheist Pope - I can filter EVERYTHING necessary to make religion look fucking terrible.

    Sometimes a universe is just a universe.
    Yeah but to me, the universe is so awesome I call it god sometimes. Literally, I used it in conversation today. People know what you mean. God, or the universe, is "something bigger" than us. We often use it when speaking about things that are beyond our control. It's kind of a beautiful thing to remember and take into account.

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