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  1. #51
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    What country are you from?
    Canada.

    My peer group makes a difference too, of course - 20s, educated (many in science), urban. Rural areas are less atheist-friendly, like in the states. Still, I can't really imagine a conversation like that happening with our PM. The "one nation under god" thing isn't really a thing here. No prayer in public schools, no creationism in public schools, gay marriage has been legal for nearly a decade with no signs of society collapsing, etc.

    We also tend to be less extreme in our identification with groups in general, for whatever reason - e.g. many people change their votes from left-wing to right-wing between elections, because there aren't really massive differences between them, and we don't tend to personally identify with our political party as much. So that probably contributes to less "militant" views as well.

    ...Crap, I shouldn't be in this thread, should I. Oh well, I'm not the only non-American here.
    -end of thread-

  2. #52
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Canada.

    My peer group makes a difference too, of course - 20s, educated (many in science), urban. Rural areas are less atheist-friendly, like in the states. Still, I can't really imagine a conversation like that happening with our PM. The "one nation under god" thing isn't really a thing here. No prayer in public schools, no creationism in public schools, gay marriage has been legal for nearly a decade with no signs of society collapsing, etc.
    I'm still waiting for the Netherlands to collapse from all that weed they smoke

    Canada hunh? And you guys speak English! *starts craigslisting for a pad in Canada*

    The "one nation under god" part is often used to justify anti atheism. Most low information people have no idea it was only added to the pledge of allegiance in 1954, during the cold war, amongst other reasons.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #53
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Canada.

    My peer group makes a difference too, of course - 20s, educated (many in science), urban. Rural areas are less atheist-friendly, like in the states. Still, I can't really imagine a conversation like that happening with our PM. The "one nation under god" thing isn't really a thing here. No prayer in public schools, no creationism in public schools, gay marriage has been legal for nearly a decade with no signs of society collapsing, etc.

    We also tend to be less extreme in our identification with groups in general, for whatever reason - e.g. many people change their votes from left-wing to right-wing between elections, because there aren't really massive differences between them, and we don't tend to personally identify with our political party as much. So that probably contributes to less "militant" views as well.

    ...Crap, I shouldn't be in this thread, should I. Oh well, I'm not the only non-American here.
    Why generalise their specific experience to the world?

    There's plenty of stable societies which dont buy into any state coercion to redefine the popular understanding of marriage and they're stable and gays are fine, why not follow their example? I dont understand why so many people hate heterosexuality and a heterosexual way of life, especially the people who are heterosexual.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiharu View Post
    I think that this is a true but one-sided observation. Some people may do this, but some Christians share their beliefs because they truly believe that they are saving you from eternal damnation. And "militant" atheists are trying to cut down on persecution stemming from religion.
    The affect/emotion and unconscious motivation is what I was talking about, its more interesting than the declared rationalisations.

    While evangelicals may believe they are saving people from eternal damnation, that follows from the idea of evangelism, why would militant athiests necessarily believe they are trying to cut down on persecution from religion? That's not a logical extention of what militant atheism is, although I understand why you make that mistake, a militant athiest would simply be concerned to remove belief in theism, its all atheism is objectively and substantively, its part of the reason AC Grayling has moved towards describing himself as a naturalist and humanist.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiharu View Post
    Idk, I can't but feel that anytime an atheist asserts themselves, they're "militant". Atheists are discriminated against all day, every day in America, a country which prides itself on toleration. I think it's high time we pushed back a bit.
    I dont believe that's the case. Now I would believe the sense of grievance you express here was valid if you were in Afghanistan asserting yourself against the Taliban, there's a difference between popularity, social acceptance and positive persecution.

    I feel this all the time when I read about the various aggrieved groups in the first world today discussing how they are oppressed.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    Dismissive comments that convey a sense of superiority and unwillingness to consider other perspectives. Obviously, behavior that isn't exclusive to "militant"/"new" atheists. To be more specific, any comments along the lines of "Religion is a crutch," "Religion was only used to explain phenomena that science now fully accounts for," and "Religion is inherently bad," which reflect simplistic and extremely half-hearted attempts at understanding either a. religion as a cultural phenomena, as others have mentioned and b. agnostic/ignostic arguments.

    *Edit: I'm not opposed to all of those comments themselves, but the atheists I've known have generally been terrible at backing them up or presenting them in a compassionate, non-confrontational way.

    I find it disturbing that people ever come to a point in their life where they think they've figured it all out and put a guard up to new ideas. But I'm willing to accept that even this will change for me as I encounter new theories and people.

    I'm still coming to grips with the fact that, on this subject, I'm in agreement with the dude who wrote "Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus," but this line always comes back to me: "It is a funny sort of humanism that condemns an impulse that is peculiarly human. Yet that is what evangelical atheists do when they demonise religion." The article it comes from is really good.
    I think John Gray is an asshat to be honest, I think that he's ripping off Mark Vernon when he says that BTW, you'd probably be really interested to read either Vernon's book on Humanism or his books on God or Love or Philosophy for that matter, each of them touches in different ways upon the conclusion about human experience mentioned in that quote there.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I tend to see religious people presenting a straw man view of atheism (for example, that atheists are supposed to present their views "in a compassionate, non-confrontational way") and then putting down atheists for not living up to that straw man view.

    Why should atheists be non-confrontational? I don't think any of the New Atheists claim to be non-confrontational. Debate involves confrontation. See my comments above about the "marketplace of ideas."
    A "marketplace of ideas"? Really, a bawlk at such an idea, truth and commerce go together like Jesus and Satan, its an extremely poor idea to want anything to be a marketplace but you probably have a different sense of the word altogether.

    Debate doesnt necessarily involve confrontation at all, in fact I'd say that confrontation is the end of an anathema to debate proper, its when debate tips over into dispute and emoting or rationalisations stand in for any reason or regard for the truth, the struggle may strengthen convictions, firm up opinions, fashion new arguments for antagonists (Edmund Burke thought so and Jung said what anyone resists, persists, he was talking about psychological conflict, resistance to insight but I think its valid in different contexts too).

    Those views have been surpassed in the sciences a long time ago, peer review has attempted to move beyond conflict and competitive models because of obstruction and obscurating effects toward dialogue and discussion instead.

    I'm not saying there shouldnt be conflict or competition in life, its inevitable, although there's little to really commend it, it needs managed and minimised.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    There's plenty of stable societies which dont buy into any state coercion to redefine the popular understanding of marriage and they're stable and gays are fine, why not follow their example? I dont understand why so many people hate heterosexuality and a heterosexual way of life, especially the people who are heterosexual.


    You need to change the record Lark, this one's broken.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That's essentially how I feel.

    As for it being a confrontation, that is inevitable, because theism and atheism are mutually exclusive views. They cannot be held at the same time. You are one or the other or you don't know (a pure agnostic). You cannot feel both are true at the same time. If this were only a cosmic matter, it would be strictly academic and there'd be no point in talking about. However, religious people often let religion influence (if not downright control) they notions of cosmology, morality, and even logic. Because of that, it is not strictly academic, but a practical social problem. Crying about the other side being confrontational can only be a self-serving trick in this case.
    You know I actually believe MP that some day, if you let yourself, you'll feel really different about posts like that one. I'm still surprised you're satisfied with atheism, especially the sort you validate with posts like that one, its also incredibly curious to hear you consider that moral conduct is a practical problem, not its lack but its existence.

    Although that said I think perhaps I thought similar things years ago too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post


    You need to change the record Lark, this one's broken.
    I feel that way when I see all the posts on a daily basis giving props to homosexuality.

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