User Tag List

First 7891011 Last

Results 81 to 90 of 143

  1. #81
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    9,128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    So funny because I grew up Catholic and I was never taught that. I think Catholics do a very poor job of communicating such things. Either that or I'm not even sure I believe you.
    In 1530, Luther wrote an open letter on interpreting about this topic, whether faith and good works or faith alone will bring salvation, because his translation of Romans 3:28, in which 'faith alone' had been given particular emphasis, had aroused considerable controversy. At least at this point in history, Catholics needed both while Protestants of Luther's persuasion needed only faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Seriously, you get the impression that Dawkins is about to have a conversion experience of some sorts throughout this.
    Only if you mistake politeness for agreement and from time to time fail to listen. Note also that it is an interview, not a debate.

    Coyne's position is refreshingly reasonable. He completely abandons god as a means of explanation. If this interview went on Fox News, however, he might be have to fear for his life, because his position is as reasonable as it seems to be rare. Although his argument for the supernatural is a joke and so easily explained away by Dawkins (by the very same method Coyne himself uses in other areas), the way he adds god to a scientific view of the universe is rather neat, because it does make religion what I, knowing that it will not go away, would like it become - a matter of taste.

    If all vocal Christians believed as Coyne does, I would have no problem with them. But most do not. I doubt @Beorn does. Do you even, @Peguy?

  2. #82
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    2,934

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I tend to think that what's most important isnt really what you believe but is what you do, they have an important reciprocal relationship though and toxic thinking leads to toxic action and, I believe, vice versa.

    Although discussions like this are all academic to me unless anyone can evidence that they are not simply intellectual exercises, if either doctrine is a lived reality and can be shown to have benefits both to the individual professing it and their neighbours, over generations, then I'm willing to hear it out. Otherwise its like a serious argument over which character from Pokemon or Yu Gi Ho is the "best", probably important enough to the people who like to engage with those kinds of things but not really to myself.

    To be honest I think most people feel this way too, perhaps unconsicously or unawares, do you want to rely upon an amoral athiest, if they are consistent with their beliefs, or a Christian, if they are consistent with their beliefs? There's a great, great deal about the new athiests, despite their movements towards naturalism, humanism and other positive positions, which remains negative, purely an intellectualised exercise or game.
    OK, let's see the action.

    I'm an amoral, materialistic atheist, and I've worked in African slums for several years. I've worked to save lives on a daily basis.

    And what have you done in the real world, Lark?

    Le'ts speak it bluntly: I've noticed, during all those years in Africa, that believers and priests tend to do NOTHING. They are parasites. They preach all day long, they preach people about the eternal life, about salvation. They're always here to gather money to build a new church or a new mosque. Their job was to steal the money of the poorest and most destitute men on earth. But many are the times when I wondered if they were interested in REAL people...
    And their preachings often have disastrous effects: for instance when I saw Catholic priests telling people that using condoms was a sin. We were in Africa, HIV prevalence was around 20% around us. So these preachings were not only irresponsible, they were in fact criminal because millions of people would die because of this stupid, insane belief.

    I am a strong atheist, and since I care only about the material (real) world, it was people like me who were more interested in how you fix pipes, how you purify water, how you avoid floods and landslides, how you avoid Cholera or Typhoid fever. I don't give a damn about souls and I puke on the Pope and the bible for what they have done here. People are dying in Africa because of these moronic preachings.

    ----

    So I ask it once again Lark: what have you done in the real world? Who is the most moral person between me and you, according to the teachings of your own faith?

    Do you think people like me should be doomed to go to hell for eternity, just because I think a lot of your Popes were mass murderers responsible for crimes against humanity, and accordingly who should have been judged in the Hague?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

  3. #83
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,805

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    If all vocal Christians believed as Coyne does, I would have no problem with them. But most do not. I doubt @Beorn does. Do you even, @Peguy?
    I've said before I'm not strictly a YEC. I subscribe to the framework view of genesis which allows for people to believe in evolution. I don't really have much of an opinion on evolution itself as I have little interest in reading up on the issue.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #84

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    OK, let's see the action.

    I'm an amoral, materialistci atheist, and I've worked in African slums for several years. I've worked to save lives on a daily basis.

    And what have you done in the real world, Lark?

    Le'ts speak it bluntly: I've noticed, during all those years in Africa, that believers and priest tend to do NOTHING. They are parasites. They preach all day long, they preach people about the eternal life, about salvation. They're always here to gather money to build a new church or a new mosque. Their job was to steal the money of the poorest and most destitute men on earth. But many are the times when I wondered if they were interested in REAL people...
    And their preachings often have disastrous effects: for instance when I saw Catholic priests telling people that using condoms was a sin. We were in Africa, HIV prevalence was around 20% around us. So these preachings were not only irresponsible, they were in fact criminal because millions of people would die because of this stupid, insane belief.

    I am a strong atheist, and since I care only about the material (real) world, it was people like me who were more interested in how you fix pipes, how you purify water, how you avoid floods and landslides, how you avoid Cholera or Typhoid fever. I don't give a damn about souls and I puke on the Pope and the bible for what they have done here. People are dying in Africa because of these moronic preachings.

    ----

    So I ask it once again Lark: what have you done in the real world? Who is the most moral person between me and you, according to the teachings of your own faith?

    Do you think people like me should be doomed to go to hell for eternity, just because I think a lot of your Popes were mass murderers responsible for crimes against humanity, and accordingly who should have been judged in the Hague?
    And I dont believe a single word you right and have you on ignore.

  5. #85
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    2,934

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    And I dont believe a single word you right and have you on ignore.
    Fine. You can't answer so you flee. That's cowardice.

    But I think the webmasters here could confirm you that in 2011-2012, I was in Africa and that my IP signature could be traced back to Morocco, Ghana and Cameroon (mostly).

    Just guess what I was doing there...
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

  6. #86

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Fine. You can't answer so you flee.

    But I think the webmasters here could confirm you that in 2011-2012, I was in Africa and that my IP signature could be traced back to Morocco, Ghana and Cameroon (mostly).
    And I dont believe a single word you right and have you on ignore.
    You'll see those are not the same thing.

  7. #87
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    2,934

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You'll see those are not the same thing.
    That's still cowardice nonetheless.

    You asked: "Although discussions like this are all academic to me unless anyone can evidence that they are not simply intellectual exercises, if either doctrine is a lived reality and can be shown to have benefits both to the individual professing it and their neighbours, over generations, then I'm willing to hear it out."

    I answered. I spoke about "live reality", about my live experience, about my daily job, even if, obviously, you don't like this kind of reality.

    I just have to understand that you lied, that in fact you do not want to "hear out".
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

  8. #88

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    That's still cowardice nonetheless.

    You asked: "Although discussions like this are all academic to me unless anyone can evidence that they are not simply intellectual exercises, if either doctrine is a lived reality and can be shown to have benefits both to the individual professing it and their neighbours, over generations, then I'm willing to hear it out."

    I answered. I spoke about "live reality", about my live experience, about my daily job, even if, obviously, you don't like this kind of reality.

    I just have to understand that you lied, that in fact you do not want to "hear out".
    Er, its not, its have you on ignore. You'll notice they're spelt differently. Although perhaps you want to add an inability to spell to incomprehension and obstreperousness.

    So, going with the whole having you on ignore thing I wont be replying to whatever you post next, needing the last word and all, you courageous online poster you

  9. #89
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Enneagram
    8
    Posts
    13,877

    Default

    @Blackmail! It really cannot be cowardly because you didn't really make a point to address alone. You are sort of turning it into a complete personal attack on a guy. You literally came out guns blazing saying, "I've done all these Mother Teresa acts in Africa and no one can deny that I've done great things in my time and I don't think you have and you've probably not done shit with your crappy little life so anything you say will be invalid here because you've never really lived man." That's kinda a bad way to start a debate with someone. It's just personal attacks moreso than actual discussion of the point you quoted him on..
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  10. #90
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    2,934

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Er, its not, its have you on ignore. You'll notice they're spelt differently. Although perhaps you want to add an inability to spell to incomprehension and obstreperousness.

    So, going with the whole having you on ignore thing I wont be replying to whatever you post next, needing the last word and all, you courageous online poster you
    Do you think you can put ideas on ignore too?

    Because what I see is that you do not want to debate about ideas and facts (which are impersonal), so you attack me in return, you try to personalize the debate.
    That is trolling.

    Here are a few questions nonetheless:

    1/ What is the role of the Catholic church in the actual HIV pandemics in Africa?

    2/ Do you think that, in a slum, considering the limited budget people have, a church or a mosque is a better investment than a new pipe to bring drinkable water?

    3/ To save the lives of people in a slum, would you rather rely on the bible, on the local Catholic priest, or on sanitation and medicine, even if the latter are implemented by an amoral atheist urbanist?

    4/ Do you think that, by doing so, I'm consistent with my unbelief? Is it impossible for you to admit or to believe that "amoral atheists" could do these kind of jobs? Why?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

Similar Threads

  1. Type most likely to use Ad Hominem in a debate?
    By Rainne in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 07-23-2010, 08:51 PM
  2. Prayers by the Lake - for those interested in Eastern Christian mysticism
    By Sniffles in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 12-02-2008, 04:51 PM
  3. Christian cult in Arkansas compound raided. Child porn and abuse investigated.
    By ajblaise in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 09-22-2008, 01:38 PM
  4. Christianity's Fall from Grace (in the US)
    By mippus in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 04-08-2008, 11:31 AM
  5. Prophecy In Christianity: Related to Ni?
    By Usehername in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 12-18-2007, 06:32 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO