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  1. #71
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Lol. No, staying out of this one so far.

    Looking forward to watching the vid though.
    Tag, you're it

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Christianity is differentiated by this concept of "grace" - you don't make your way into heaven by good deeds. You make your way into heaven through faith.
    The doctrine of Salvation through Faith Alone is a Protestant Doctrine.

    The Catholic doctrine of Salvation is by Faith and Good Works.

    But how revealing that the Protestant doctrine of Salvation is naively presented here as the Christian doctrine of Salvation.

    The reality is that both Protestant and Catholic doctrines are weapons of religious hatred in the war of religion.

  3. #73
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The doctrine of Salvation through Faith Alone is a Protestant Doctrine.

    The Catholic doctrine of Salvation is by Faith and Good Works.

    But how revealing that the Protestant doctrine of Salvation is naively presented here as the Christian doctrine of Salvation.

    The reality is that both Protestant and Catholic doctrines are weapons of religious hatred in the war of religion.
    So funny because I grew up Catholic and I was never taught that. I think Catholics do a very poor job of communicating such things. Either that or I'm not even sure I believe you.

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  4. #74
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    So funny because I grew up Catholic . I think Catholics do a very poor job of communicating such things. Either that or I'm not even sure I believe you.
    I grew up Catholic, too, and we always associated good works with the protestants. We had our prayers and rituals and traditions, but they were out in the world actually doing good for people. I realize the reality is much more mixed, that there are many effective Catholic charities, and strains of protestantism that stress belief above all else. If someone is "believing" just to win the bet, however, which path do they take? In my estimation, the path of good works is the one that helps make the world a better place, regardless of the individual's belief or the reality of God's existence.

    You are right, though, that Catholics often do a poor job of communicating their own teachings to the faithful. I learned more about the Catholic faith in a couple courses at a very secular college than I did in many years of attending church and "Sunday school".
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #75
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    STEM fields do not argue for atheism. Specific individuals do, some of whom work in STEM fields.
    Jeezus is everyone going to pick on my way with words... I do not mean that STEM fields argue for atheism. I mean these are the fields people turn to when they are atheists. Atheists want to credit science all the time as being an absolute truth and I was saying there are experts in STEM fields that are not even convinced.. so to take science with a grain of salt. Most science that once was has changed, and it will continue to change.

    Atheists are not the only ones who rely on science. Moreover, scientists do recognize the interconnections among all things, we just often describe it in much different terms from those speaking from a religious perspective. Atheism is based just as much on belief as is any religion. Agnosticism is the only logically defensible perspective, but a perspective need not be 100% logically defensible to be worthwhile and useful.
    This is my point entirely. The kid is telling this guy absolutes like "But there is no God" and "You hear voices in your head, not God's voice" but this is a belief based on faith in what they feel to be true just like any religion. This is why I think (regardless of what the Christian dude said) I felt the need to comment that the kid seems a little too self-entitled and cocky during the debate. I didn't get into what the Christian dude said because that's a whole other pile of worms. But I also think he was at a disadvantage in the way he was pitted up against a kid of the guy he was debating, and that he probably was chosen for his inability to speak under pressure. I think debates are sort of set up that way when it comes to religion. It is never a discussion, always a dick-measuring contest of who's right and who's stupid.

    Instead of complaining about what the Christian dude said, I focused on something else. What the Christian dude is saying is not shocking or new to anyone that knows Christians.

    Their positions are in no way equivalent. The boy is pointing out a logical inconsistency in the man's statement. "Reasonable" answers would be to explain how it is not logically inconsistent and the boy is therefore in error; or to explain that faith statements do not require logical consistency. This man did not have the mental wherewithal to do either.
    The boy's position is that he is an atheist asking the question to a Christian about where his evidence is for God existing. Immediately he says the man is hearing voices in his head, not God's voice. The boy is not looking for evidence--he is already confident that it does not exist. He is just waiting for whatever Christian thing the Christian would bring out, and then he'll parrot whatever his dad's been teaching him his whole life in return.

    They both have positions based on faith. That is why I feel they are in the same position. The boy has a blind-faith approach to this the same way he feels the Christian man does about his faith. Refusing to 'see the truth' as it were. They are no different to me.. except one was in a really bad social position and clearly is not used to debate, and the other was well scripted.

    Logic is a process. Provide different inputs to the process, and it will deliver a different outcome. This is not subjectivity, but rather using the facts relevant to the problem.
    It is still a construct of humanity, and thus it will be subjective in nature. Logic changes as humanity changes, it grows, shrinks, gets focus, or gets scoffed at as culture changes. Logic is different for everyone. What is logical to one group of people is not for another. Even if something is logical to all of us in the whole world, it does not mean it will stay logical for all of time. It isn't an algorithm of thought process. It is very relative and full of subjectivity.. it's not as calculated and precise as people give it credit for being.

    That is not to discount its usefulness or credibility.. I'm an ENFP, we tend to not want to invalidate anything if we can help it. I am just saying that it is overly emphasized as this end-all show stopper and it really isn't as precise and scientific as people want to give it credit for, to take the example of this thread. "It is just logic." But it really isn't just logic. It is logic constructed by beliefs and faith and nurturing of one's surroundings and culture.. it is a belief, and it is just as prone to change and subjectivity.

    Logic is molded by our society like anything else. It is an idea, and a concept. It is not a hard fast, absolute construct.
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  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The doctrine of Salvation through Faith Alone is a Protestant Doctrine.

    The Catholic doctrine of Salvation is by Faith and Good Works.

    But how revealing that the Protestant doctrine of Salvation is naively presented here as the Christian doctrine of Salvation.

    The reality is that both Protestant and Catholic doctrines are weapons of religious hatred in the war of religion.
    The first two lines are wrong, which can only indicate that the rest are all wrong too.

  7. #77
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    So funny because I grew up Catholic and I was never taught that. I think Catholics do a very poor job of communicating such things. Either that or I'm not even sure I believe you.
    Or Victor's just wrong.

    This is a muddled and athiest view of the history of the schism/reformation, if it was ever an accurate description of the differences, and I know some protestant evangelicals who would suggest it is, it isnt any longer since the Roman Catholic Church issued a consensus document with the Lutheran Church.

    At the time I really disagreed with it because I believe there's certain serious flaws in the thinking surrounding pre-destination or justification by faith, its a feeder movement for capitalism if you believe Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and The Spirit of Capitalism, its got potential to spawn unconscienable acts as highlighted in James Hogg's novel Confessions of A Justified Sinner. I still have major concerns, I've always erred on the side of Matthew and James' Christianity rather than Paul's and their version involved making more of a testamony of your life, performing what might be called "works", in my view.

    On the other hand there's reasons why believing that eternal life can be earned through human action or personal sacrifices is seriously problematic too, maybe more so.

    I've read views expressed by Kolakowski that Erasmus represents a "third position" and that interests me.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I grew up Catholic, too, and we always associated good works with the protestants. We had our prayers and rituals and traditions, but they were out in the world actually doing good for people. I realize the reality is much more mixed, that there are many effective Catholic charities, and strains of protestantism that stress belief above all else. If someone is "believing" just to win the bet, however, which path do they take? In my estimation, the path of good works is the one that helps make the world a better place, regardless of the individual's belief or the reality of God's existence.

    You are right, though, that Catholics often do a poor job of communicating their own teachings to the faithful. I learned more about the Catholic faith in a couple courses at a very secular college than I did in many years of attending church and "Sunday school".
    You're kidding right?

    Wow, er, dont know what to say about this.

  9. #79
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    I tend to think that what's most important isnt really what you believe but is what you do, they have an important reciprocal relationship though and toxic thinking leads to toxic action and, I believe, vice versa.

    Although discussions like this are all academic to me unless anyone can evidence that they are not simply intellectual exercises, if either doctrine is a lived reality and can be shown to have benefits both to the individual professing it and their neighbours, over generations, then I'm willing to hear it out. Otherwise its like a serious argument over which character from Pokemon or Yu Gi Ho is the "best", probably important enough to the people who like to engage with those kinds of things but not really to myself.

    To be honest I think most people feel this way too, perhaps unconsicously or unawares, do you want to rely upon an amoral athiest, if they are consistent with their beliefs, or a Christian, if they are consistent with their beliefs? There's a great, great deal about the new athiests, despite their movements towards naturalism, humanism and other positive positions, which remains negative, purely an intellectualised exercise or game.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    For those interested in a decent discussion about religion vs science, here's Richard Dawkins and Fr. George Coyne:



    Seriously, you get the impression that Dawkins is about to have a conversion experience of some sorts throughout this.

    @Beorn might have something to say.
    That's probably the best discussion of faith and spirituality that I've encountered in ten or twelve years, I'd never have found that because I've got a strong aversion to all things Dawkins and I agree with what you said about him appearing to be on the verge of a conversion experience, I'm aware though that it appears as though the complete conversation is not featured here, that its edited, would that be right?

    The shameful thing about this is that decent religious views like this dont get an airing now, especially not within the UK, unless in contra distinction or as a counterpoint to atheism and I'll bet that whatever TV show this was a part of that the conversation itself was framed and contextualised by Dawkins in order that it would be in step with the overall view he would be presenting, which would be one which would consider what the priest had to say as ultimately unpersuasive.

    I mean, I've heard that, I'm not sure if it was Bertand Russell, archetypical athiest, who said that from time to time they may have been swayed by one or another individual's presentation of theism but after a spell decided that it was the personal charisma of the individual, their presentation skills, "the singer, not the song" which was influencing them.

    Its a shame that religion and religious thinking does not receive the airing it ought to, its very easy to dismiss, deride and debunk what does get an airing that's for sure. There's obviously a huge difference between this clip and the one in the OP, I bet the one in the OP gets circulated quicker, to a wider audience and shapes minds more than this one, unfortunately.

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