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  1. #51
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post

    The quote about knowledge has no relevence or baring upon that discussion, although that discussion isnt one which the OP wants to have, its not conducive to the sort of OMG yes! thread they had in mind. So instead you've got a pretty lousy debate, the sort you'd expect from a sixth grader, which adhere's to rules of argument but is not conducive to any real discovery of truth.
    Is that what you're after here?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  2. #52
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Logic doesn't feel.
    Logic doesnt know or they'd get another representative.

  3. #53
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    You don’t know what the kid’s motives are or whether or not he perceives Hovind to be ignorant. But I do credit you with great skill in projecting your own motives onto others.
    Please. I'm not in the kid's head or anything. But when you tell someone right off the bat they're not hearing their God but voices in their own head, there is little room for interpretation.

    Now who’s taking the moral ground here?
    I happen to find a comfort in higher moral grounds. I don't find it a bad thing.. Hence me complaining that atheists normally just claim it instead of actually being there. So you're not really jabbing at me with this little 'turn around' of words.

    There is no “father’s logic,” there is only logic
    There is absolutely father's logic. Just as my father taught me a certain logic, and any other father out there. They literally featured the father (not the son) as the atheist vs this guy even though it was the son talking.

    That’s a lot of absolutes cast in the context of relativity of values, for example, “There is no such thing as pure logic.”
    I know, you just love the semantics of language.. I'm not going to argue it around in circles. There is no such thing as pure logic *as humans themselves can grasp.* Logic is subjective by nature. It is based on society, societal views, ideas... these are not objective viewpoints. You don't say "It is logical that animals eat other animals for survival." You say "Animals eat other animals for survival." It is not the animal's idea to eat another animal. It is biological. Logic is something society made up. Just like all the other non-materialistic things in this world.

    Now-a-days, it is 'logical' for women to have the same rights as men, whether people see it or not. But this is NOT pure logic. It cannot be pure because it is based on subjectivity and changes with time and people's thoughts. We just use 'pure logic' as this idea to push other ideas towards. It cannot exist in and of itself because there is no absolutes when it comes to relativity.

    I agree with his logic, and I observed that Hovind was roundly defeated by it, whether or not he wants to admit defeat to anybody.
    And I said that I don't think he was really as defeated as you think he is. I think it is really impossible for this kid to 'defeat' him without defeating the reasons behind his own conclusions.

    There is no reason for you to get your claws out over this.
    Really. A joke referring to a woman as being catty because she doesn't agree with your thread's title.. That's where we're going with this?
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  4. #54
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I happen to find a comfort in higher moral grounds. I don't find it a bad thing.. Hence me complaining that atheists normally just claim it instead of actually being there. So you're not really jabbing at me with this little 'turn around' of words.

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Which part are you talking about? The original question was whether he has evidence of God or not.. that God is just a piece of his mind talking to himself, and not a higher being.

    (I haven't even gotten into how rude and narrow minded that last bit is..)
    I had posted that in response to Mal+'s text. The actual exchange happened in the middle of the video. I really dislike these debates because both sides are so narrowminded.

    EDIT: To be clear. I am talking about the debate in the video, not this thread. I am not sure what shape the debate in this thread will take.

    EDIT 2: Found the debate that preceded the exchange in the OP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEhyoW62XuQ

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  6. #56
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Please. I'm not in the kid's head or anything. But when you tell someone right off the bat they're not hearing their God but voices in their own head, there is little room for interpretation.
    And yet, there is no objective way to prove whether someone is hearing God’s voice or a voice that comes from the self. It is all based on someone’s assertion that the voice they heard (assuming they did hear a voice) was God’s.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I happen to find a comfort in higher moral grounds. I don't find it a bad thing.. Hence me complaining that atheists normally just claim it instead of actually being there. So you're not really jabbing at me with this little 'turn around' of words.
    You “actually being” on higher moral ground, lol. You don’t lack in humility, I’ll give you that.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    There is absolutely father's logic. Just as my father taught me a certain logic, and any other father out there. They literally featured the father (not the son) as the atheist vs this guy even though it was the son talking.
    The son literally made the statements he made. And there is no “father’s logic,” there is just logic. For example:
    http://www.learninggamesforkids.com/logic_games.html
    Did the father create that webpage? Did he create it for his son?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I know, you just love the semantics of language.. I'm not going to argue it around in circles. There is no such thing as pure logic *as humans themselves can grasp.* Logic is subjective by nature. It is based on society, societal views, ideas... these are not objective viewpoints. You don't say "It is logical that animals eat other animals for survival." You say "Animals eat other animals for survival." It is not the animal's idea to eat another animal. It is biological. Logic is something society made up. Just like all the other non-materialistic things in this world.
    If a statement of logic was not based in the objective, material world, it is PURE logic – by definition OF pure logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Now-a-days, it is 'logical' for women to have the same rights as men, whether people see it or not. But this is NOT pure logic. It cannot be pure because it is based on subjectivity and changes with time and people's thoughts. We just use 'pure logic' as this idea to push other ideas towards.
    The statement about women having the same rights as men is not from logic, it is simply the case that, in 21st century USA, women have the same political rights as men.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It cannot exist in and of itself because there is no absolutes when it comes to relativity.
    That’s an absolute.


    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    And I said that I don't think he was really as defeated as you think he is. I think it is really impossible for this kid to 'defeat' him without defeating the reasons behind his own conclusions.
    How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Really. A joke referring to a woman as being catty because she doesn't agree with your thread's title.. That's where we're going with this?
    You called me wishy washy. Is that an example of your higher moral ground? Is that where we’re going with this? Yes, that was another “little” turn-around.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #57
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I had posted that in response to Mal+'s text. The actual exchange happened in the middle of the video. I really dislike these debates because both sides are so narrowminded.

    Then please enlighten us with your broad-minded view of the subject. I know that you don't place value in such debates. But isn't there more to broad-mindedness than that?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #58
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I had posted that in response to Mal+'s text. The actual exchange happened in the middle of the video. I really dislike these debates because both sides are so narrowminded.

    EDIT: To be clear. I am talking about the debate in the video, not this thread. I am not sure what shape the debate in this thread will take.

    EDIT 2: Found the debate that preceded the exchange in the OP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEhyoW62XuQ
    I agree with you, they're not generally a place to find any sense what so ever, Mark Vernon writes brilliantly about the court room debate about creationism and darwinism in the US, it was made into the film Inherit The Wind, and describes how before that science and religion had been considered to be harmonious but the debate set two equally incompatible alternatives against one another and the majority of the people in the US from that day have given careful consideration as to what hostile "camp" they belong to, a lot of the time deciding on the basis of which is most replusive to them, and not whether the dichotomy per se is a legitimate one.

    So is the way of debates, they arent discussions and they quickly descend into disputes.

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Then please enlighten us with your broad-minded view of the subject. I know that you don't place value in such debates. But isn't there more to broad-mindedness than that?
    Actually, I am watching the actual debate. It is fairly broad minded so-far. The father has had many perspectives, including perspectives similar to his opponent. This is broad minded.

    The problem I had was with the showboating/gotcha style of exchange in the original video. Where slogans and soundbites are what each person is trying to create. I think, for an 11 year-old it is more forgivable.

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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
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  10. #60
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I agree with you, they're not generally a place to find any sense what so ever, Mark Vernon writes brilliantly about the court room debate about creationism and darwinism in the US, it was made into the film Inherit The Wind, and describes how before that science and religion had been considered to be harmonious but the debate set two equally incompatible alternatives against one another and the majority of the people in the US from that day have given careful consideration as to what hostile "camp" they belong to, a lot of the time deciding on the basis of which is most replusive to them, and not whether the dichotomy per se is a legitimate one.

    So is the way of debates, they arent discussions and they quickly descend into disputes.
    If people would stop using the YOU word all the time, it wouldn't go that way!

    Coincidentally, I'm reading an interesting book about taking ego out of arguments and debates.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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