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  1. #41
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its already been established that your opinion doesnt matter.

    Although the fact you're compelled to supply it after the fact is pretty telling.
    ...Thus proving through example what I just said.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  2. #42
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Well no, not crush. Just nicely put him in his place while setting a good example of valid reasoning skills. If you have a comeback for the 11-year-old's point, then this is a good time to state what that is. The point is that if Hovind requires absolute certainty to know anything, then, applying Hovind's own premise, he can't know that God exists.
    I have stated my come back time, and time, again in here. My comeback is that the kid has all the of the SAME absolute certainty that the guy he is debating with has. There is no difference between the two on that. There is no comeback. The kid just cannot see that he is in the exact same position from the opposite view.

    The kid's age puts him off his guard because he doesn't expect an 11-year-old to be capable of such reasoning.
    He's put on guard from the very beginning. The kid pretty much tells him to his face after interrupting him, "There is no proof of God." Is there really anything else that can be said after that? The kid has no intentions of seeing if there is proof, or what kind of proof this guy is willing to offer.. the kid is wanting to just stick it to some Christian adult that he perceives to be ignorant for believing things as absolutely as he does.

    And every adult in the room to include that kid's father has no qualms with lacking respect for the cultures and ideals of those not like him. It's a closed minded, ignorant way to be for a group of people that claim to take the higher moral ground when it comes to tolerance.

    And yet you know that the kid's argument was not based in faith, but in logic, regardless of whether he has faith in logic or not.
    The kid's logic is based on his father's logic. It is not his own. If his father is a logical figure or not, it does not matter. My point is the kid has faith that his father is right, and he feels like he sees that for himself. It is no different than the guy who was taught to say the things he is saying about Christianity and God.

    Then what according to you is pure logic?
    As I said, it is the same as altruism. It is a point on a sliding scale. Something we will never hit exactly because nothing is exact in science. We have to round up decimal points, put approximations on things, and theorize what we cannot have and know 100% for certain.

    There is no such thing as pure logic. That is the trouble with all of this, people think there is a definite right and a definite wrong and it is never what the other person they are discussing with has. I am not even trying to discuss how wrong *I* think the Christian guy is... because that wasn't what I was trying to touch on here. What I am trying to touch on is that the kid is not going around pwning Christian dudes in the face.. he's just being overly absolute and you agree with what he's saying.. which makes it a lot easier for you to stomach how flawed his views are as well.

    I'm not taking a stand in the debate, nothing you said there has validity.
    You clearly have a stance. You clearly not only agree with what the kid is saying, but you are trying to exclude him as being in the same boat as the Christian dude and thus justifying the way he delivers his 'debate'.

    You made a great point about practical/absolute thinking. Why ruin it?
    This is how wishy washy you are. I make a point, one that you think is great, but I say something else and suddenly everything I say sucks to you. If this kid were to find God in 10 years and become a preacher, would you discredit everything he said the day of the video?

    My points are simply that I don't see anyone demolished in that video. The kid had a clear advantage in social position being young and well defended by other adults, and every adult in that room was just there to completely try to smoke that guy for his perceived truth. No one was smoking them for their truth being just as perceived. That's all I saw.
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  3. #43

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    Why didn't the guy just answer "yes"?

    That seemed like a simple enough answer to a rather straightforward and logical question.

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  4. #44
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Why didn't the guy just answer "yes"?

    That seemed like a simple enough answer to a rather straightforward and logical question.
    Which part are you talking about? The original question was whether he has evidence of God or not.. that God is just a piece of his mind talking to himself, and not a higher being.

    (I haven't even gotten into how rude and narrow minded that last bit is..)
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    ...Thus proving through example what I just said.
    Interesting.

    By all means carry on, I've never had anyone confirm my thinking about them so quickly, as representatives of atheism and atheist "thinking" goes you're just wonderful.

    Do you consult sixth graders for anything else? Mortgage advice or health insurance maybe? Since they're a font of knowledge and all.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I have stated my come back time, and time, again in here. My comeback is that the kid has all the of the SAME absolute certainty that the guy he is debating with has. There is no difference between the two on that. There is no comeback. The kid just cannot see that he is in the exact same position from the opposite view.
    So your comeback is that there is no comeback? Then I’d have to say that Hovind was implicitly in your camp here, as he had no comeback either.

    Furthermore, either an agnostic or another Christian could easily defeat Hovind’s argument precisely the same way. Therefore, the identity of their respective belief systems is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    He's put on guard from the very beginning. The kid pretty much tells him to his face after interrupting him, "There is no proof of God." Is there really anything else that can be said after that? The kid has no intentions of seeing if there is proof, or what kind of proof this guy is willing to offer.. the kid is wanting to just stick it to some Christian adult that he perceives to be ignorant for believing things as absolutely as he does.
    You don’t know what the kid’s motives are or whether or not he perceives Hovind to be ignorant. But I do credit you with great skill in projecting your own motives onto others.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    And every adult in the room to include that kid's father has no qualms with lacking respect for the cultures and ideals of those not like him. It's a closed minded, ignorant way to be for a group of people that claim to take the higher moral ground when it comes to tolerance.
    Now who’s taking the moral ground here?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    The kid's logic is based on his father's logic. It is not his own. If his father is a logical figure or not, it does not matter. My point is the kid has faith that his father is right, and he feels like he sees that for himself. It is no different than the guy who was taught to say the things he is saying about Christianity and God.
    There is no “father’s logic,” there is only logic

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    As I said, it is the same as altruism. It is a point on a sliding scale. Something we will never hit exactly because nothing is exact in science. We have to round up decimal points, put approximations on things, and theorize what we cannot have and know 100% for certain.

    There is no such thing as pure logic. That is the trouble with all of this, people think there is a definite right and a definite wrong and it is never what the other person they are discussing with has. I am not even trying to discuss how wrong *I* think the Christian guy is... because that wasn't what I was trying to touch on here. What I am trying to touch on is that the kid is not only not going around pwning Christian dudes in the face.. he's just being overly absolute and you agree with what he's saying.. which makes it a lot easier for you to stomach how flawed his views are as well.

    That’s a lot of absolutes cast in the context of relativity of values, for example, “There is no such thing as pure logic.”

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    You clearly have a stance. You clearly not only agree with what the kid is saying, but you are trying to exclude him as being in the same boat as the Christian dude and thus justifying the way he delivers his 'debate'.
    I agree with his logic, and I observed that Hovind was roundly defeated by it, whether or not he wants to admit defeat to anybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    This is how wishy washy you are. I make a point, one that you think is great, but I say something else and suddenly everything I say sucks to you.
    There is no reason for you to get your claws out over this.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    If this kid were to find God in 10 years and become a preacher, would you discredit everything he said the day of the video?
    Not at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    My points are simply that I don't see anyone demolished in that video. The kid had a clear advantage in social position being young and well defended by other adults, and every adult in that room was just there to completely try to smoke that guy for his perceived truth. No one was smoking them for their truth being just as perceived. That's all I saw.
    I perceived Eric Hovind being demolished by a kid, as well as a few other things.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #47
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Interesting.

    By all means carry on, I've never had anyone confirm my thinking about them so quickly, as representatives of atheism and atheist "thinking" goes you're just wonderful.

    Do you consult sixth graders for anything else? Mortgage advice or health insurance maybe? Since they're a font of knowledge and all.
    @kyuuei has observed that it was the father's belief system passed on to his kid, so I have no issue with it so long as he's stating the father's belief properly.

    And I'm not representing atheism here, I'm representing logic.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Which part are you talking about? The original question was whether he has evidence of God or not.. that God is just a piece of his mind talking to himself, and not a higher being.

    (I haven't even gotten into how rude and narrow minded that last bit is..)
    The whole question of whether or not God exists or is just "that voice inside" has been done to death, there's athiests who seize upon the whole bicameral mind idea with glee and think its one of their "final proofs" and its all ridiculous and very modern.

    Too much is taken to be the product of human minds without any thinking about how absurd that actually is, if someone suggested that the weather or time of day or colour of the sky was a product of their mind everyone would think they're a bit touched or crazy because no matter how eschew their perception or sensation of the external world is there's no mistake than a external world exists quite independently of humankinds thinking about it.

    Further that external world is ordered and orderly, it is from that point possible to positively, rationally infer the legitimacy of such ideas as theism or a deity. Its not possible to infer anything about that deity, is it sentient in a sense which has any relationship to mankind or is its relationship to man kind the same as mankind's relationship to an ameba or atomic molecule for instance, but I think that's a different question, one more exclusively of philosophy and spirituality.

    A lot of this bullshit began at the time of Descartes and debate steming from thinking about refraction and lenses, ie you put a stick in water, it appears "bent" from a particular angle but if you take it out again its perfectly straight so can you trust the senses? No you cant, that could have multipled and made plausible belief or multipled and made plausible doubt since many philosophers, ie Plato and Socrates, and religious sources have questioned the sense perception of mankind in reference to ultimate truths about existence but it seems to have been ploughed altogether into doubt.

    The quote about knowledge has no relevence or baring upon that discussion, although that discussion isnt one which the OP wants to have, its not conducive to the sort of OMG yes! thread they had in mind. So instead you've got a pretty lousy debate, the sort you'd expect from a sixth grader, which adhere's to rules of argument but is not conducive to any real discovery of truth.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    @kyuuei has observed that it was the father's belief system passed on to his kid, so I have no issue with it so long as he's stating the father's belief properly.

    And I'm not representing atheism here, I'm representing logic.
    I wonder how logic feels about that.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I wonder how logic feels about that.
    Logic doesn't feel.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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