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  1. #31
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    What I think you're trying to debate here is absolute vs practical. I keep going to practical applications.. because on a scale of absolute selfishness to altruism ... You're debating whether altruism exists.. and I am saying it is merely the end point on a sliding scale.. but that does not mean, for all practical purposes, that we cannot classify someone's actions as altruistic simply because we have no absolute altruism in humanity.

    So to be certain of something, it is okay for practical application. We can say we knew for certain we were in love when we met our SOs. Did we have absolute, objective 100% certainty that we saw the future, all the way down the line ahead of time, and knew that we never wavered in that love once? No. But we can still use the word 'certain' for the practical application of it. We can say 'I am absolutely certain of this' because this is as close as one gets to being objectively absolute. You're arguing semantics of cultural language with this.
    I will only mention in passing that, in the history of philosophy, the pragmatism you support there has led to the analysis of cultural semantics. I know that's beside the point you're debating, but the two ideas are hardly that distinct, as late 19th to 20th-century philosophy indicates. They are closely related ideas.

    As for the rest, can you say with practical certainty that God exists? Absolutely; one simply can't say it with theoretical certainty. And in this, your point is most brilliant.
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  2. #32
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Christian asserts the premise that in order to know anything with certainty you have to know everything.

    Sixth grader asks: So in order to know that God exists you have to know everything?

    Christian stutters uncertainly, and then repeats the original premise as if the sixth grader didn't understand it.


    That guy is just dumb. The kid is awesome.

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  3. #33
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Atheists: 1
    Christians: 0
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  4. #34
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    The thing is, it doesn't matter if you can or can't prove God exists. I believe God exists. If I'm right, I have everything to gain. If I'm wrong then I have little to lose. If you you don't believe God exists and if God does exist then you have everything to lose.

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  5. #35
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    The thing is, it doesn't matter if you can or can't prove God exists. I believe God exists. If I'm right, I have everything to gain. If I'm wrong then I have little to lose. If you you don't believe God exists and if God does exist then you have everything to lose.
    If it's a simple belief, true. But that's not what is meant by faith in the Christian sense.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #36
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    It's an absolute to state that convincing a Christian to be an atheist is impossible. I didn't mean to imply that it was impossible, although the "camel" analogy does imply this.
    I don't think it is impossible at all though. Plenty of Christians lose their faith.. but I know a LOT of Christians that lose their faith well before they actually take a scholarly look into the depths of the religion.. They see some bullet points, hear what society is saying, and they sort of get stuck in the flow of things. But, regardless of that, this guy would be impossible (in a practical sense.. of course, theoretically, we will never know for sure) to convince.

    My point entirely is... Why are you going to try to convince someone of something personal and subjective that you are right when there is no 100% substantial proof that you are the right 'side' of things?

    I don't recall the kid saying that Hovind is a moron. Did he get some ideas from his father? Probably. But that's beside the point, and that is, his point demolishes Hovind so badly that he ended up stuttering and starting over again.
    If you're going to tell me that your title alone does not suggest that the adult speaking is stupid in nature and that the kid is absolutely trying to imply this to the public then I don't really know what we have to talk about here.

    I don't think stuttering and starting again make for a stupid person. For the record.. it is REALLY hard to be very PC with a child. Someone is always going to get upset. What could he do? Crush the kid in front of his father figure? What good comes of the adult winning a debate with an 11 year old child with his father standing right there? He was on film, with the kid's father, and the kid was stating things that the kid honestly doesn't really know anything about. The kid isn't a scholar, he hasn't delved into the religions and studied the things he needs to make absolute claims. He is being fed information--just like Christian children.

    How do you sit there and tell a kid his father is wrong? You really can't without looking like a douche. And that was the catch 22 he was in. Either you're a douche, or you lose. Debating with kids is just not winning no matter what you do.

    I have also witnessed scientists ending up stuttering and repeating themselves for precisely the same reason. And so I don't find myself siding with either one. The kid is certainly no scientist, he argued simply from logic, pure logic. Thus proving it's not necessary to argue from the basis of God's existence or non-existence, either as an atheist or a theist.
    Faithful logic. Even if it isn't faith in God.. he has faith in the logic he was taught by his father. And there is nothing to say that he won't grow up to change what he thinks years from now.

    It is not 'pure' logic. Children are molded by their surroundings. Of course they have personalities of their own, but I have no reason to believe this kid was saying anything except what his father repeats to him all the time. He sounds like a parrot, not a scholarly child curious about things.

    Their respective personal beliefs in this or that metaphysical entity are not the issue here.

    A wise (young) professor once taught me a valuable debating skill: deal with the other person's logic before the facts of the matter. Because if the other person doesn't have his or her logical shit together, the rest won't matter.
    Which still doesn't address the issue that atheism is NOT the only, and true, absolute way to think logically as a human being. And everything here, in this video and what you are saying, is implying it does.

    Which means.. the rest here does not matter. I mean, honestly, I think you were looking for a bunch of "Omg yes!" posts for this, in which case you're starting to get them so you can feel content with that. @Lark and I sort of just got here first.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    The thing is, it doesn't matter if you can or can't prove God exists. I believe God exists. If I'm right, I have everything to gain. If I'm wrong then I have little to lose. If you you don't believe God exists and if God does exist then you have everything to lose.
    To some, it absolutely does matter. This is my point entirely.. until there is proof, why is it atheists always have this huge dick up their ass about people not agreeing with them 100%? It's like this awful cult-ish mentality of 'If you're not agreeing with us then you're a stupid, ignorant moron' and it's really irritating after a while.

    At least Christians that feel that way know that is how they feel. Atheists get stuck in this ironic loop of complaining that that is how Christians are while being that way themselves.
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  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Which still doesn't address the issue that atheism is NOT the only, and true, absolute way to think logically as a human being. And everything here, in this video and what you are saying, is implying it does.

    Which means.. the rest here does not matter. I mean, honestly, I think you were looking for a bunch of "Omg yes!" posts for this, in which case you're starting to get them so you can feel content with that. @Lark and I sort of just got here first.
    I'm sure that's what was expected and I'm sure because the initial response to what I'd posted was simply to post the quote from the clip and ignore the questions about why to do so and what was felt was meant by it.

    This to me is pretty juvenile, to try and find the one sentence response which will save any thinking about the topic and can be easily regurgitated should it ever come up, the ultimate achievement of meme culture and internet intellectualism.

    I dont think that atheism is a logical response to the human condition, it hasnt been for the whole of human history, human geography or human demography for that matter, not that this proves the essential truth of alternatives to atheism it just proves that atheism isnt the only response to the human condition.

    For my part it beggars many a question, if religions, God, spirituality were all crafty conceits, inventions of priestcraft etc. etc. as most atheists describe them its a wonder that they ever organically emerged as they did, universally or almost universally and atheism has such a hard, hard time gaining a purchase within most cultures without major conflicts of conscience or histories of hating or being revolted by their own traditions, history and cultural memory.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I don't think it is impossible at all though. Plenty of Christians lose their faith.. but I know a LOT of Christians that lose their faith well before they actually take a scholarly look into the depths of the religion.. They see some bullet points, hear what society is saying, and they sort of get stuck in the flow of things. But, regardless of that, this guy would be impossible (in a practical sense.. of course, theoretically, we will never know for sure) to convince.

    My point entirely is... Why are you going to try to convince someone of something personal and subjective that you are right when there is no 100% substantial proof that you are the right 'side' of things?



    If you're going to tell me that your title alone does not suggest that the adult speaking is stupid in nature and that the kid is absolutely trying to imply this to the public then I don't really know what we have to talk about here.

    I don't think stuttering and starting again make for a stupid person. For the record.. it is REALLY hard to be very PC with a child. Someone is always going to get upset. What could he do? Crush the kid in front of his father figure?
    Well no, not crush. Just nicely put him in his place while setting a good example of valid reasoning skills. If you have a comeback for the 11-year-old's point, then this is a good time to state what that is. The point is that if Hovind requires absolute certainty to know anything, then, applying Hovind's own premise, he can't know that God exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    What good comes of the adult winning a debate with an 11 year old child with his father standing right there? He was on film, with the kid's father, and the kid was stating things that the kid honestly doesn't really know anything about. The kid isn't a scholar, he hasn't delved into the religions and studied the things he needs to make absolute claims. He is being fed information--just like Christian children.
    All he needs to start with is logic. From there, he can prove that certain premises are invalid or self-contradictory. And he has done so, whether or not his ideas about logic came from his father. If both sides aren't using logic, whether competently or not, whether taking the analytic or synthetic approach, then it's not a debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    How do you sit there and tell a kid his father is wrong? You really can't without looking like a douche. And that was the catch 22 he was in. Either you're a douche, or you lose. Debating with kids is just not winning no matter what you do.
    The kid's age puts him off his guard because he doesn't expect an 11-year-old to be capable of such reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Faithful logic. Even if it isn't faith in God.. he has faith in the logic he was taught by his father. And there is nothing to say that he won't grow up to change what he thinks years from now.
    And yet you know that the kid's argument was not based in faith, but in logic, regardless of whether he has faith in logic or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It is not 'pure' logic. Children are molded by their surroundings. Of course they have personalities of their own, but I have no reason to believe this kid was saying anything except what his father repeats to him all the time. He sounds like a parrot, not a scholarly child curious about things.
    Then what according to you is pure logic?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Which still doesn't address the issue that atheism is NOT the only, and true, absolute way to think logically as a human being. And everything here, in this video and what you are saying, is implying it does.
    I'm not taking a stand in the debate, nothing you said there has validity.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Which means.. the rest here does not matter. I mean, honestly, I think you were looking for a bunch of "Omg yes!" posts for this, in which case you're starting to get them so you can feel content with that. @Lark and I sort of just got here first.
    It doesn't matter what I was looking for. The topic is the video, not my alleged motives for posting the video.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    To some, it absolutely does matter. This is my point entirely.. until there is proof, why is it atheists always have this huge dick up their ass about people not agreeing with them 100%? It's like this awful cult-ish mentality of 'If you're not agreeing with us then you're a stupid, ignorant moron' and it's really irritating after a while.

    At least Christians that feel that way know that is how they feel. Atheists get stuck in this ironic loop of complaining that that is how Christians are while being that way themselves.
    You made a great point about practical/absolute thinking. Why ruin it?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #39
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm sure that's what was expected and I'm sure because the initial response to what I'd posted was simply to post the quote from the clip and ignore the questions about why to do so and what was felt was meant by it.

    This to me is pretty juvenile, to try and find the one sentence response which will save any thinking about the topic and can be easily regurgitated should it ever come up, the ultimate achievement of meme culture and internet intellectualism.

    I dont think that atheism is a logical response to the human condition, it hasnt been for the whole of human history, human geography or human demography for that matter, not that this proves the essential truth of alternatives to atheism it just proves that atheism isnt the only response to the human condition.

    For my part it beggars many a question, if religions, God, spirituality were all crafty conceits, inventions of priestcraft etc. etc. as most atheists describe them its a wonder that they ever organically emerged as they did, universally or almost universally and atheism has such a hard, hard time gaining a purchase within most cultures without major conflicts of conscience or histories of hating or being revolted by their own traditions, history and cultural memory.
    You're not above the fray. Whether atheist or Christian, you're part of the problem.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    You're not above the fray. Whether atheist or Christian, you're part of the problem.
    Its already been established that your opinion doesnt matter.

    Although the fact you're compelled to supply it after the fact is pretty telling.

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