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  1. #21
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Did anybody here state that religion doesn't have some value (as when you refer to discounting it, because that's a statement of valuation)? Religion obviously has value, at least subjectively. It simply has no value for science. Can faith and reason exist in the same person? Obviously. Does it have anything to do with the present topic? No. Religion can be of value to scientists, but it is of no value to science.
    There's those absolutes again. Religion does have value in science. It is the religious mind that went and looked for the arch. Discoveries are made on faith a lot of times, not on evidence. Time and time again we see treasures from our past and present unfolding because we have faith in ourselves, others, and those motivators drive the people in the STEM fields. How it is valued is different for everyone.. to say it has no place at all is to discount a lot of great finds driven by the religious mind.

    The lines get blurred a lot where science should start and religion should end for STEM fields. I am merely pointing out that there are no certainties. For either side. That boy said with 100% certainty that there is no proof of God. And he may be right. But I cannot say that without saying maybe. And no one else should be able to either. And still, no one can say that no proof of something does not discount its existence.

    We cannot know without knowing everything. And no one will ever know everything. That's why we can make fun of teenagers so much.
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I thought I answered according to my infinitely limited comprehension of your comment. It's a red herring because, so far, you haven't dealt with the topic of the thread, but only dismissed the value of such debates.
    OK, you're not for answering any of what I posted then? That's alright, suppose we're clear enough then and no need to carry on wasting time posting to one another.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    There's those absolutes again. Religion does have value in science. It is the religious mind that went and looked for the arch. Discoveries are made on faith a lot of times, not on evidence. Time and time again we see treasures from our past and present unfolding because we have faith in ourselves, others, and those motivators drive the people in the STEM fields. How it is valued is different for everyone.. to say it has no place at all is to discount a lot of great finds driven by the religious mind.

    The lines get blurred a lot where science should start and religion should end for STEM fields. I am merely pointing out that there are no certainties. For either side. That boy said with 100% certainty that there is no proof of God. And he may be right. But I cannot say that without saying maybe. And no one else should be able to either. And still, no one can say that no proof of something does not discount its existence.

    We cannot know without knowing everything. And no one will ever know everything. That's why we can make fun of teenagers so much.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you with my absolutes; but the topic has to do with faith in God, not faith in oneself. I agree there can be great personal value in having faith in oneself, as well as faith in God.

    And you mention "discounting" God's existence again, as if I didn't understand it in the first place. But I do understand it. It means devaluing God's existence. And I have already addressed this point, so let me put it another way: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for an atheist to convince a Christian that God doesn't exist. This is because the Christian's mind is structured in such a way that the idea of God's existence has great value for him or her. It is the idea that possesses greatest significance, greatest value. In some cases, this value is greater than life itself.

    However, the topic is not the valuation of God, which is what is implied when you say "discounting."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    OK, you're not for answering any of what I posted then? That's alright, suppose we're clear enough then and no need to carry on wasting time posting to one another.
    Ask me about the topic, not about the value of debating the topic.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Ask me about the topic, not about the value of debating the topic.
    You dont understand, perhaps its why you're posting this online and not having a conversation with someone in person about it. Anyway, thanks for posting because I know I dont want to converse with you any longer.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You dont understand, perhaps its why you're posting this online and not having a conversation with someone in person about it. Anyway, thanks for posting because I know I dont want to converse with you any longer.
    You may always start a thread about the value of religious debates.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #27
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    There's those absolutes again. Religion does have value in science. It is the religious mind that went and looked for the arch. Discoveries are made on faith a lot of times, not on evidence. Time and time again we see treasures from our past and present unfolding because we have faith in ourselves, others, and those motivators drive the people in the STEM fields. How it is valued is different for everyone.. to say it has no place at all is to discount a lot of great finds driven by the religious mind.

    The lines get blurred a lot where science should start and religion should end for STEM fields. I am merely pointing out that there are no certainties. For either side. That boy said with 100% certainty that there is no proof of God. And he may be right. But I cannot say that without saying maybe. And no one else should be able to either. And still, no one can say that no proof of something does not discount its existence.

    We cannot know without knowing everything. And no one will ever know everything. That's why we can make fun of teenagers so much.
    Regarding the last statement, the question doesn't concern knowing, but knowing with absolute certainty.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #28
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you with my absolutes; but the topic has to do with faith in God, not faith in oneself. I agree there can be great personal value in having faith in oneself, as well as faith in God.
    I know. What you're referring to, as the video is, is the absolute truth of whether God exists at all, not about personal matters. What I am saying is...

    It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for an atheist to convince a Christian that God doesn't exist.
    This is impossible because (excluding that the other way around is impossible as well) atheists have no more or less proof in their position than Christians do from an absolute truth perspective. Everything is relative in the human mind itself. There is no evidence for *either* case, and thus it is all a subjective matter. Even if The Bible, the Koran, whatever Jews read, etc. is all discounted and discredited, what they are based on (God and his existence) has not been proven one way or the other.

    I am simply saying atheists are overly confident in their side/view and seem to not notice it just because they aren't confident in the same way Christians are. So you get a lot of absolutes and criticism towards Christians when, really, these statements (like the one the kid made, accusatory in nature.. trying to tell this man he is a moron for not siding with him and having a different cultural view of knowledge and reality) are quite ignorant in nature. They blame the person for his/her lack of knowledge. As if you have to be an expert to know anything about anything. This is simply not the case for humanity. The guy admits he does not know everything--he trusts what he is taught, as do all humans. The kid is 11.. If you're going to tell me he got zero influence from his parents I will tell you to watch the video again because the guy immediately thinks the father figure has something to do with this at the beginning. Accusing people of being stupid for not being an expert in a subject is not really the way to go about a debate.

    I don't think the kid crushed him. I think the guy spoke well enough for himself, and the kid was quite accusatory in his language. For Christians, to be told God exists, it is the same as being told 2+2=4. For atheists, to be told that God does not exist, it is the same as being told 2+2=4. And they both work.

    That is why I keep going to the value of God in the individual and oneself vs the absolute truth. No one has an absolute truth--only what they perceive to be truth.
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  9. #29
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Regarding the last statement, the question doesn't concern knowing, but knowing with absolute certainty.
    What I think you're trying to debate here is absolute vs practical. I keep going to practical applications.. because on a scale of absolute selfishness to altruism ... You're debating whether altruism exists.. and I am saying it is merely the end point on a sliding scale.. but that does not mean, for all practical purposes, that we cannot classify someone's actions as altruistic simply because we have no absolute altruism in humanity.

    So to be certain of something, it is okay for practical application. We can say we knew for certain we were in love when we met our SOs. Did we have absolute, objective 100% certainty that we saw the future, all the way down the line ahead of time, and knew that we never wavered in that love once? No. But we can still use the word 'certain' for the practical application of it. We can say 'I am absolutely certain of this' because this is as close as one gets to being objectively absolute. You're arguing semantics of cultural language with this.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I know. What you're referring to, as the video is, is the absolute truth of whether God exists at all, not about personal matters. What I am saying is...



    This is impossible because (excluding that the other way around is impossible as well) atheists have no more or less proof in their position than Christians do from an absolute truth perspective. Everything is relative in the human mind itself. There is no evidence for *either* case, and thus it is all a subjective matter. Even if The Bible, the Koran, whatever Jews read, etc. is all discounted and discredited, what they are based on (God and his existence) has not been proven one way or the other.

    I am simply saying atheists are overly confident in their side/view and seem to not notice it just because they aren't confident in the same way Christians are. So you get a lot of absolutes and criticism towards Christians when, really, these statements (like the one the kid made, accusatory in nature.. trying to tell this man he is a moron for not siding with him and having a different cultural view of knowledge and reality) are quite ignorant in nature. They blame the person for his/her lack of knowledge. As if you have to be an expert to know anything about anything. This is simply not the case for humanity. The guy admits he does not know everything--he trusts what he is taught, as do all humans. The kid is 11.. If you're going to tell me he got zero influence from his parents I will tell you to watch the video again because the guy immediately thinks the father figure has something to do with this at the beginning. Accusing people of being stupid for not being an expert in a subject is not really the way to go about a debate.

    I don't think the kid crushed him. I think the guy spoke well enough for himself, and the kid was quite accusatory in his language. For Christians, to be told God exists, it is the same as being told 2+2=4. For atheists, to be told that God does not exist, it is the same as being told 2+2=4. And they both work.

    That is why I keep going to the value of God in the individual and oneself vs the absolute truth. No one has an absolute truth--only what they perceive to be truth.
    It's an absolute to state that convincing a Christian to be an atheist is impossible. I didn't mean to imply that it was impossible, although the "camel" analogy does imply this.

    I don't recall the kid saying that Hovind is a moron. Did he get some ideas from his father? Probably. But that's beside the point, and that is, his point demolishes Hovind so badly that he ended up stuttering and starting over again.

    I have also witnessed scientists ending up stuttering and repeating themselves for precisely the same reason. And so I don't find myself siding with either one. The kid is certainly no scientist, he argued simply from logic, pure logic. Thus proving it's not necessary to argue from the basis of God's existence or non-existence, either as an atheist or a theist.

    Their respective personal beliefs in this or that metaphysical entity are not the issue here.

    A wise (young) professor once taught me a valuable debating skill: deal with the other person's logic before the facts of the matter. Because if the other person doesn't have his or her logical shit together, the rest won't matter.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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