Who believes in Angels?

[Lark]

I have that on a shirt. But it has text:

HA! I love that, I absolutely love that

 

[En Gallop]

I think Good and Evil are something subjective, but still have an impact on the way we choose to live our lives. I dont belive in the same standards of Good for all, I dont dictate that, but Im not a nihilist who believes morals are nonexistant either. I believe as humans we experience "good" in our spirtual lives, but I think what cosntitutes good depends on each individual and that individual's manner of relating to others.

I don't believe Morality exists at all, in any real sense. Ethical opinions come down to either our emotions, or our reason. They mean nothing when it comes to saying whether something is REALLY right or wrong. They basically just say either "I don't like this" or "I think society would be better if..." The reason I don't go out and murder someone is because it would make me feel bad to see the other person in pain, not because it's Wrong in any weird universal way.

So if you accept that (and most people won't), then we move onto the idea that God is seen as good - which by now would be a contradictory claim and therefore unlikely in my eyes. By what standard is god good? If it's by standards outside of himself, then God is irrelevant to Goodness. If it's by his own standards, then it's just God's personal opinion and means nothing at all.

If God is not Good, Angels cannot either, and Demons cannot be Evil. Blah Blah you get the point.

I'm boring myself now lol.

 

[Typh0n]

I don't believe Morality exists at all, in any real sense. Ethical opinions come down to either our emotions, or our reason. They mean nothing when it comes to saying whether something is REALLY right or wrong. They basically just say either "I don't like this" or "I think society would be better if..." The reason I don't go out and murder someone is because it would make me feel bad to see the other person in pain, not because it's Wrong in any weird universal way.

So if you accept that (and most people won't), then we move onto the idea that God is seen as good - which by now would be a contradictory claim and therefore unlikely in my eyes. By what standard is god good? If it's by standards outside of himself, then God is irrelevant to Goodness. If it's by his own standards, then it's just God's personal opinion and means nothing at all.

If God is not Good, Angels cannot either, and Demons cannot be Evil. Blah Blah you get the point.

I'm boring myself now lol.

God is Good? Dun dun dun .... what about...Is God Evil?

 

[En Gallop]

God is Good? Dun dun dun .... what about...Is God Evil?

Lol it's a defining characteristic among most theists.

 

[Beorn]

The reason I don't go out and murder someone is because it would make me feel bad to see the other person in pain, not because it's Wrong in any weird universal way.

That's a reason to not kill a person in a painful way not a reason to not kill a person. Remember what I said about practicality only being a matter of how you achieve the ends you desire?

 

[En Gallop]

That's a reason to not kill a person in a painful way not a reason to not kill a person. Remember what I said about practicality only being a matter of how you achieve the ends you desire?

I'd go along with that. Painless murders are a lot better. But I'd still (a) feel bad for their family and friends, (b) need a good reason to do the killing. And a method that means I won't get caught by those pesky police haha.

We've been through this. You still haven't given me any arguments why morality would exist. It is NOT "self-evident".

 

[Azure Flame]

I don't really believe in angels, despite being a christian. My faith is in god and that's about it.

 

[Beorn]

I'd go along with that. Painless murders are a lot better. But I'd still (a) feel bad for their family and friends, (b) need a good reason to do the killing. And a method that means I won't get caught by those pesky police haha.

A) That's just a matter of emotional manipulation in your view.

B) No you don't need a good reason in your worldview. Because nothing is good, remember? You can do whatever you want. The police then are just using their power to control you and manipulate you to their will.

We've been through this. You still haven't given me any arguments why morality would exist. It is NOT "self-evident".

I'll return to that. I'm more concerned that you don't even know why you aren't going to become a murderer.

 

[En Gallop]

A) That's just a matter of emotional manipulation in your view.

B) No you don't need a good reason in your worldview. Because nothing is good, remember? You can do whatever you want. The police then are just using their power to control you and manipulate you to their will.



I'll return to that. I'm more concerned that you don't even know why you aren't going to become a murderer.

What is Morality in your view then? You haven't told me your own thoughts. You can't just believe in something because you dislike the alternative.

You hit the nail on the head - the reason is because I don't WANT to kill anyone. Why would I? Why do you think people who disagree with you are murderers?

 

[Lark]

Lol it's a defining characteristic among most theists.

Well, I wouldnt have said that all athiests, or even rationalists, were amoral but since you've categorically stated so who's to argue with that?

I guess I'm just glad that for the majority of human history morality and belief in God has ruled instead.

I mean if that wherent so we may not even be having this discussion.

 

[En Gallop]

Well, I wouldnt have said that all athiests, or even rationalists, were amoral but since you've categorically stated so who's to argue with that?

I guess I'm just glad that for the majority of human history morality and belief in God has ruled instead.

I mean if that wherent so we may not even be having this discussion.

I never said that a world without Morality was better. I just said that's the world we live in.

Theists don't get out of the trap either. God is completely irrelevant to Morality.

 

[Beorn]

What is Morality in your view then?

You haven't told me your own thoughts. You can't just believe in something because you dislike the alternative.

Why are you trying to manipulate me?

If there is no right or wrong then I can believe whatever I want. Your effort to make me defend my position is just a matter of you trying to impose your will and your desire for what you like on me.

You have no ground on which to stand that allows you to criticise my beliefs.

You hit the nail on the head - the reason is because I don't WANT to kill anyone.

Right now. But, you have no sense of morality so nothing beyond your will is going to stop you from doing anything. This means you're just an animal and can't be expected to behave as a human with a sense of goodness.

Why would I? Why do you think people who disagree with you are murderers?

1) I didn't call you a murderer.
2) There's nothing wrong with being a murderer so I don't know why it would bother you if I called you one.
3) I'm just saying you don't have a good reason to not be a murderer. That is, the reason you don't want to murder someone is basically the same reason I don't want to have another cup of coffee. I don't want to right now under the circumstances.

 

[Beorn]

I never said that a world without Morality was better. I just said that's the world we live in.

Without morality there is no "better."

 

[93JC]

I'm just saying you don't have a good reason to not be a murderer. That is, the reason you don't want to murder someone is basically the same reason I don't want to have another cup of coffee. I don't want to right now under the circumstances.

Devil's advocate D) question:


If the only thing stopping an irreligious person from murdering someone is that they don't want to under the circumstances, conversely does that mean that the only thing stopping a religious person from murdering someone is fear of punishment by, from the point of view of the irreligious, an invisible sky wizard?

 

[En Gallop]

Why are you trying to manipulate me?

If there is no right or wrong then I can believe whatever I want. Your effort to make me defend my position is just a matter of you trying to impose your will and your desire for what you like on me.

You have no ground on which to stand that allows you to criticise my beliefs.



Right now. But, you have no sense of morality so nothing beyond your will is going to stop you from doing anything. This means you're just an animal and can't be expected to behave as a human with a sense of goodness.



1) I didn't call you a murderer.
2) There's nothing wrong with being a murderer so I don't know why it would bother you if I called you one.
3) I'm just saying you don't have a good reason to not be a murderer. That is, the reason you don't want to murder someone is basically the same reason I don't want to have another cup of coffee. I don't want to right now under the circumstances.

I cannot criticise your beliefs on ethical standards, but I CAN on the grounds that they are plain stupid. Reason exists. Your complete lack of any argument to defend your position other than "Ooooo look, isn't murder just soo BAD!" is laughable. Murder is neither bad nor good, conceptually. Whether it's logically/emotionally justifiable will depend on the specific situation.

I still have emotions like everyone else; I just realise they're a sort of illusion. To call me an animal is just uncalled for really, I don't know why you said that. I'm no more or less of an animal than you are.



I know you told me you weren't a troll, but I really think you are. You're not interested in having an actual reasonable conversation with me, but just to insult me based on my philosophical perspectives. What's that all about?

 

[cafe]

I have that on a shirt. But it has text:

That's great!

 

[Beorn]

Devil's advocate D) question:


If the only thing stopping an irreligious person from murdering someone is that they don't want to under the circumstances, conversely does that mean that the only thing stopping a religious person from murdering someone is fear of punishment by, from the point of view of the irreligious, an invisible sky wizard?

Worldview plays some role in how society is structured and how individuals act. However, in my view despite what other people might believe I think everyone is a human endowed with a certain sense of right and wrong. So even if you don't have a reason for believing in right and wrong you can't escape your own sense of it. This is why I think En Gallop doesn't want to be thought of as a murderer. It's not just a matter cultural conditioning.

 

[Lark]

I never said that a world without Morality was better. I just said that's the world we live in.

Theists don't get out of the trap either. God is completely irrelevant to Morality.

Discussing things with you really, really tires me out, which is a relatively new experience on my part.

You remind me a lot of Victor.

 

[Typh0n]

Devil's advocate D) question:


If the only thing stopping an irreligious person from murdering someone is that they don't want to under the circumstances, conversely does that mean that the only thing stopping a religious person from murdering someone is fear of punishment by, from the point of view of the irreligious, an invisible sky wizard?

To butt in; No. Some people beleive in Good in and of itself. You dont even have to be religious to do so. The person who believes they shouldnt murder because God will punish them is no different than a Nietzsche or a Hobbes who beleives that only power defines morality. Theyre not murdering because they are indeed scared. I base my notion of the Good on the idea that Good can be done for its own sake.

 

[En Gallop]

Discussing things with you really, really tires me out, which is a relatively new experience on my part.

You remind me a lot of Victor.

All you need to do is tell me why I'm wrong. Shouldn't be so difficult if you're so darn sure.

Thanks. The most unreasonable person on the forum.