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Who believes in Angels?

Eruca

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I'm not sure that means anything. The factory made the car, but it doesn't follow from that the best place for the car to stay is in the factory. The Bible is England's past and therefore it is set in time, honoring or not honoring it in the present will not erode the past so our decision to do so must be based on current functionality and the truth of the Bible in itself. Besides, Shakespeare is humanity's achievement, not God's.
 

Lark

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Well to be honest trying to evaluate art and literature is a pretty pointless thing to do. All it ever comes down to is personal feelings. And mine tell me that I prefer Harry Potter. I also prefer many other books. You'll like different ones. Objectively speaking, all books are just words on paper with no "worth" whatever. So what? :)

JK Rowling's work isn't so original. But neither was the Bible. Originality has nothing to do with the quality of a work of fiction. It helps, but there are other more important things - like the author's ability to tell a good story. Jane Austen was one of the least original writers you can think of - yet she was still great.

Btw for a better ancient "spaghetti" book read the Arabian Nights. Far superior to the Bible in every way! :)


On another note, almost all the best stories are written by a single author following their vision. Usually when a team of writers write something it's either only occasionally good and mainly average (like Doctor Who), or complete junk.

I can honestly say that reading your posts since you entered this thread has been truly depressing.

I'm not aiming to be offensive in saying so, I think that you probably represent contemporary opinion very well and that is truly depressing.

Nowhere do I see any real contemporaries or comrades when it comes to my opinions but lots of reminders that I have to choose between two very flawed "camps" more or less, looking for the lesser evil, and no one ever wanted to live or die for "the lesser evil".
 

En Gallop

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I can honestly say that reading your posts since you entered this thread has been truly depressing.

I'm not aiming to be offensive in saying so, I think that you probably represent contemporary opinion very well and that is truly depressing.

Nowhere do I see any real contemporaries or comrades when it comes to my opinions but lots of reminders that I have to choose between two very flawed "camps" more or less, looking for the lesser evil, and no one ever wanted to live or die for "the lesser evil".

Lol well if you're happy to believe something just because it makes you happy go ahead, but don't expect rational people to agree with you.

May I just ask what you find so distressingly depressing? :)

And what are these opinions you're talking about?
 

Lark

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I'm not sure that means anything. The factory made the car, but it doesn't follow from that the best place for the car to stay is in the factory. The Bible is England's past and therefore it is set in time, honoring or not honoring it in the present will not erode the past so our decision to do so must be based on current functionality and the truth of the Bible in itself. Besides, Shakespeare is humanity's achievement, not God's.

Can there be such a thing?

I consider Shakespeare, Dante, Dore and all the other great works of art and literature to be works of God aswell as man, in fact to draw the distinction is a strange one which makes no sense to me at all.

The athiest reverence for the bible as literature gets close the purpose is to diminish its significance as divine or a key to thinking and decision making.

That does not approach the understanding of the bible as a key to western culture and civilisation, the very language and thinking and patterning of the brain have been determined by the book, it has frankly incredible psychological and sociological importance which it incomparable to any work of literature since, I dont believe that Shakespeare even approaches it, although it is great in its own way.

The bloodless dead hand of atheism will do a lot of intellectual harm before it is done attempting to erase things of great importance from the collective memory.
 

Lark

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Lol well if you're happy to believe something just because it makes you happy go ahead, but don't expect rational people to agree with you.

May I just ask what you find so distressingly depressing? :)

And what are these opinions you're talking about?

I find it depressing, not distressing, I find it depressing because you are stating uncritically and with confidence things I consider pretty obvious falsehoods.

I dont believe anything because "it makes me happy", it is precisely because I do not and actually can not that I hold most of opinions I do. They are all unpopular and conform to just about nothing in the world today (or perhaps any other time, hence the title of my blog).

I'm envious of how some people I know can accept some of the ideas they do, although Bertrand Russell (I know he was an athiest) said to envy no one who lives in a fools paradise their state because only a fool would live there.

My beliefs are entirely rational. Exclusively so.
 

En Gallop

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I find it depressing, not distressing, I find it depressing because you are stating uncritically and with confidence things I consider pretty obvious falsehoods.

I dont believe anything because "it makes me happy", it is precisely because I do not and actually can not that I hold most of opinions I do. They are all unpopular and conform to just about nothing in the world today (or perhaps any other time, hence the title of my blog).

I'm envious of how some people I know can accept some of the ideas they do, although Bertrand Russell (I know he was an athiest) said to envy no one who lives in a fools paradise their state because only a fool would live there.

My beliefs are entirely rational. Exclusively so.

I'm happy to change my mind or explain myself if you give me good reasons to. I'm not really sure what falsehoods you're talking about though.
 
S

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Well to be honest trying to evaluate art and literature is a pretty pointless thing to do. All it ever comes down to is personal feelings. And mine tell me that I prefer Harry Potter. I also prefer many other books. You'll like different ones. Objectively speaking, all books are just words on paper with no "worth" whatever. So what? :)


that's BS: your entertainment value is a matter of personal feeling, but any analysis of society is going to be fundamentally incomplete without tracing back on it's basic concepts, the meme's and the cultural impact. pieces of fiction have inspired technology & political attitudes, they helped raise & shape the mentality of many of the people who shaped society, from both the bottom up and the top down. they deliver messages which have value in terms of how people receive them and react to them (regardless if the messages are true).

you won't really understand human society without understanding religion, and for that matter you can't understand anglo saxon society without shakespeare, and to a much smaller extent you won't be able to understand the dork culture of SETI without odyssey 2001. gaining understanding has value as utility - contributing to your ability to better function within that society, ranging from the ideas you can build on to the depths and compression level of communicating to the people around you. a piece of fiction has more value than how much fun you had while consuming it.


Besides, Shakespeare is humanity's achievement, not God's.

so is the bible.
 

Eruca

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Can there be such a thing?

I consider Shakespeare, Dante, Dore and all the other great works of art and literature to be works of God aswell as man, in fact to draw the distinction is a strange one which makes no sense to me at all.

The athiest reverence for the bible as literature gets close the purpose is to diminish its significance as divine or a key to thinking and decision making.

Well your starting position here is a belief in the Christian god. If I were to share this belief, the distinction would be nonsensical to me as well! We also can't discuss the existence of God to determine things here, as that would derail the thread terribly.

That does not approach the understanding of the bible as a key to western culture and civilisation, the very language and thinking and patterning of the brain have been determined by the book, it has frankly incredible psychological and sociological importance which it incomparable to any work of literature since, I dont believe that Shakespeare even approaches it, although it is great in its own way.

The bloodless dead hand of atheism will do a lot of intellectual harm before it is done attempting to erase things of great importance from the collective memory.

I agree that, In Britain, the bible has a very large and multileveled impact on our culture. To say that the very thinking patterns of our brains have been formed by the bible seem to be an exaggeration. For one thing, it seems unlikely the bible could have such a great hold on our collective consciousness considering vast swaths of the British public now overtly reject its most fundamental beliefs. How could this be so if our very thoughts, that which would determine belief, were already formed by the text?
 

En Gallop

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that's BS: your entertainment value is a matter of personal feeling, but any analysis of society is going to be fundamentally incomplete without tracing back on it's basic concepts, the meme's and the cultural impact. pieces of fiction have inspired technology & political attitudes, they helped raise & shape the mentality of many of the people who shaped society, from both the bottom up and the top down. they deliver messages which have value in terms of how people receive them and react to them (regardless if the messages are true).

you won't really understand human society without understanding religion, and for that matter you can't understand anglo saxon society without shakespeare, and to a much smaller extent you won't be able to understand the dork culture of SETI without odyssey 2001. gaining understanding has value as utility - contributing to your ability to better function within that society, ranging from the ideas you can build on to the depths and compression level of communicating to the people around you. a piece of fiction has more value than how much fun you had while consuming it.



.

All those things are very interesting, but have nothing to do with the value of a work of literature as a work of literature. Why does Informative equal Good?
 

Lark

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I'm happy to change my mind or explain myself if you give me good reasons to. I'm not really sure what falsehoods you're talking about though.

I dont believe you are, perhaps on some level you know that too, I've discussed with the best of them and know the various tricks to pull to appear open minded and present your opponent as lacking any argument.

Although we are not opponents. You have made bold pronouncements about being rational, of the sensible english class who are influenced more by Harry Potter than the cornerstones of western civilisation and I've accepted that, I think is depressing but you dont, I dont accept you're implied dichotomy that I and my beliefs are irrational though.

Why is the burden of proof upon me though? Besides it being a common enough debate and disputation tactic to do so? I've not made a bold assertion whereas you have, without it being persuasive or supported by evidence I'd add.

Anyway, I've heard it all before. I hope you find what you're looking for and that you're blinkers dont stop you.
 

Lark

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Well your starting position here is a belief in the Christian god. If I were to share this belief, the distinction would be nonsensical to me as well! We also can't discuss the existence of God to determine things here, as that would derail the thread terribly.

You could choose to frame a debate that way, I'm not sure that you could read that into what I wrote, for instance I did not mention Christianity but in reality I was responding to your dichotomy of God vs. Humanity, either one or the other is the inspiration and they are mutually exclusive, its not something I would accept.

I agree that, In Britain, the bible has a very large and multileveled impact on our culture. To say that the very thinking patterns of our brains have been formed by the bible seem to be an exaggeration. For one thing, it seems unlikely the bible could have such a great hold on our collective consciousness considering vast swaths of the British public now overtly reject its most fundamental beliefs. How could this be so if our very thoughts, that which would determine belief, were already formed by the text?

You know I was going to hunt down a few secular, even staunchly athiest sources which stated the ways in which the bible and religious tradition had patterned the brain, the most recent of which I think was one of those cartoons on youtube which has a lecture set to an emerging sketch, which I think was about emerging empathetic culture.

Then I decided why the hell would I bother, you seem pretty set in your beliefs and happy about that, any information which I can provide to the contrary you're not going to want to hear and doing so will probably only serve to further entrench you in your present opinions as opposed to inspire you to think again or more carefully examine the conclusions you've already reached and cherish. So, I guess it was a misjudgement on my part to respond in the first place.
 

Lark

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See post 64.

You dont believe that's rational?

Well you're young and perhaps I'll speak to you once you've grown up a bit, had some opportunity to do some reading which stretches you beyond the comfortable confines you're inhabiting now, until then.
 

En Gallop

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I dont believe you are, perhaps on some level you know that too, I've discussed with the best of them and know the various tricks to pull to appear open minded and present your opponent as lacking any argument.

Although we are not opponents. You have made bold pronouncements about being rational, of the sensible english class who are influenced more by Harry Potter than the cornerstones of western civilisation and I've accepted that, I think is depressing but you dont, I dont accept you're implied dichotomy that I and my beliefs are irrational though.

Why is the burden of proof upon me though? Besides it being a common enough debate and disputation tactic to do so? I've not made a bold assertion whereas you have, without it being persuasive or supported by evidence I'd add.

Anyway, I've heard it all before. I hope you find what you're looking for and that you're blinkers dont stop you.

All that matters to me is that I know I'm looking for the truth. Whether you believe I am or not is not my concern. I am not anyone else you've ever spoken to. I can't say whether you lack arguments or not, as I haven't heard any from you.

The thing about English people being more rational or whatever was a joke. Sorry if you took that the wrong way. They are just more reasonable in this specific topic. I wouldn't say I was perfectly rational, but I'm certainly more rational than most.

I take it by "cornerstone of western civilisation" you mean the Bible - a book giving the strange views of a random, ignorant, middle-eastern desert tribe living 2,000 years ago (and more)?

As I said, I don't really know what you believe so i can't say for sure. But if it's anything close to the general view of Christianity then I'd say your views were irrational, yes.

I'm not even asking you to prove it, to be honest. Just give me good reasons to believe your thoughts are true, and I'll be converted!

What bold assertion have I made?
 

En Gallop

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Can there be such a thing?

I consider Shakespeare, Dante, Dore and all the other great works of art and literature to be works of God aswell as man, in fact to draw the distinction is a strange one which makes no sense to me at all.

The athiest reverence for the bible as literature gets close the purpose is to diminish its significance as divine or a key to thinking and decision making.

That does not approach the understanding of the bible as a key to western culture and civilisation, the very language and thinking and patterning of the brain have been determined by the book, it has frankly incredible psychological and sociological importance which it incomparable to any work of literature since, I dont believe that Shakespeare even approaches it, although it is great in its own way.

The bloodless dead hand of atheism will do a lot of intellectual harm before it is done attempting to erase things of great importance from the collective memory.

Why do you believe there's a god - and, more importantly, a God who is into literature? And why would a god want to collaborate?

Of course. And that is a great thing.

You seriously believe it's better than the entire works of Shakespeare? Mein Kampf had great importance for people too.

I'm an agnostic, so I can't comment on the last part.
 

Typh0n

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Mein Kampf had great importance for people too.

On people of a society which lastes from 1933 to 1945. It was a work of propagada and had no lasting impact on society's long term thinking. My point? I agree with you actually when you argue that we need to get the times, that things have changed(if thats what you're argueing). But nontheless I think the bible had more of a "lasting" impact than works of propaganda by 20th century dictators, mainly because its impact was progessive its influence was more pervasive than that of Mein Kampf. So yes, it might not have the hold it once did on people, but the influence is still there.
 

En Gallop

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On people of a society which lastes from 1933 to 1945. It was a work of propagada and had no lasting impact on society's long term thinking. My point? I agree with you actually when you argue that we need to get the times, that things have changed(if thats what you're argueing). But nontheless I think the bible had more of a "lasting" impact than works of propaganda by 20th century dictators, mainly because its impact was progessive its influence was more pervasive than that of Mein Kampf. So yes, it might not have the hold it once did on people, but the influence is still there.

Are you suggesting the Bible wasn't a work of propaganda? Hopefully the Bible and Qur'an won't have to much of an impact long term too. Whether it had a positive or negative impact on mankind is entirely irrelevant. What matters is whether the things it claims are true.
 

Typh0n

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Are you suggesting the Bible wasn't a work of propaganda? Hopefully the Bible and Qur'an won't have to much of an impact long term too. Whether it had a positive or negative impact on mankind is entirely irrelevant. What matters is whether the things it claims are true.

Everything is propagada.:ninja: And I disagree, it matters that it had an impact on humanity. Because in this world nothing is true, everything is perspective. What matters is that for a time, people believed it to be true. Because thats what shapes humanity today and effects our good or bad actions.
 
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En Gallop

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Everything is propagada.:ninja: And I disagree, it matters that it had an impact on humanity. Because in this world nothing is true, everything is perspective. What matters is that for a time, people believed it to be true. Because thats what shapes humanity today and effects our good or bad actions.

I disagree, truth does exist. But from our limited perspective as humans it can be very hard to find and grasp. No reason we shouldn't try though.

I'm not so interested in what shapes humanity or anything like that (or at least not in this context), and I don't believe in Good or Bad actions. :)

I don't really see such a big difference in our views [so far] to be honest.
 
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