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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    I disagree, truth does exist. But from our limited perspective as humans it can be very hard to find and grasp. No reason we shouldn't try though.
    I agree I said "in this world". I think truth exists, but not so much in the material world, were everything seems a question of perception.

    I'm not so interested in what shapes humanity or anything like that (or at least not in this context), and I don't believe in Good or Bad actions.

    I don't really see such a big difference in our views [so far] to be honest.
    What is the context, Im a little lost. The topic went from the angels to the bible's influence, haha.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    I agree I said "in this world". I think truth exists, but not so much in the material world, were everything seems a question of perception.



    What is the context, Im a little lost. The topic went from the angels to the bible's influence, haha.
    If not the material world than where? I'm not quite sure what you mean.

    Lol yeah, I haven't read back so I can't remember what we're even meant to be talking about. I've written a load of irrelevant crap in this thread haha.

    I mean that I'm interested in the history of civilisation (and religions, etc.), but that the history of civilisation has nothing to do with the actual world independent of human experience. It isn't even meant to lol.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    If not the material world than where? I'm not quite sure what you mean.

    Lol yeah, I haven't read back so I can't remember what we're even meant to be talking about. I've written a load of irrelevant crap in this thread haha.

    I mean that I'm interested in the history of civilisation (and religions, etc.), but that the history of civilisation has nothing to do with the actual world independent of human experience. It isn't even meant to lol.
    I mean Plato's realm of ideas as opposed to the realm of the senses

    Not sure what you mean by the "actual world indepednant of human experience". You mean the realm of scientific facts, as in proving whether or not angels exist?

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    I mean Plato's realm of ideas as opposed to the realm of the senses

    Not sure what you mean by the "actual world indepednant of human experience". You mean the realm of scientific facts, as in proving whether or not angels exist?
    But the realm of ideas is just inside our heads...

    Yes, the real world. Not particularly scientific "facts", but the external world that science tries to explain. I'm not sure you could prove whether or not angels exist (well, they certainly don't - but we won't get into that as they may still be real even if they can't exist), but I don't see any reason why they should. I can see a case for some kind of god (not the normal kind), but for angels it just makes no sense.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    But the realm of ideas is just inside our heads...
    Nice. But the world of the senses that we experience(phenomenal) is also in our heads, or at least we cant know it isnt. Speaking of Kant, no philosopher has been able to refute his ideas regarding the nature of knowledge. Basically we can know the truth but not know that what we know is true. Im not sure how anyone can really refute that, given you cant step outside yourself and still remain you. I know this is a bit off topic but not entirely.

    Yes, the real world. Not particularly scientific "facts", but the external world that science tries to explain. I'm not sure you could prove whether or not angels exist (well, they certainly don't - but we won't get into that as they may still be real even if they can't exist), but I don't see any reason why they should. I can see a case for some kind of god (not the normal kind), but for angels it just makes no sense.
    I see. Why not?

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Nice. But the world of the senses that we experience(phenomenal) is also in our heads, or at least we cant know it isnt. Speaking of Kant, no philosopher has been able to refute his ideas regarding the nature of knowledge. Basically we can know the truth but not know that what we know is true. Im not sure how anyone can really refute that, given you cant step outside yourself and still remain you. I know this is a bit off topic but not entirely.



    I see. Why not?
    Of course, we're completely in agreement there. We need to have some skepticism about everything. But even if the world we live in is not real, it is still something, and we can find things out about that something.

    Why not what?

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    Of course, we're completely in agreement there. We need to have some skepticism about everything. But even if the world we live in is not real, it is still something, and we can find things out about that something.

    Why not what?
    Haha, we are in agreement. I recognize that.

    You were saying angels existence is irrelevant and that it wouldnt make sense that they exist, so I asked why not, why couldnt they?(Not saying they do btw)

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Haha, we are in agreement. I recognize that.

    You were saying angels existence is irrelevant and that it wouldnt make sense that they exist, so I asked why not, why couldnt they?(Not saying they do btw)
    It doesn't make sense to me, for the same reason that the Christian god doesn't make sense. These are apparently magical beings that came from nowhere just on the whim of another magical being. No problem so far. But why does God have sooo many human characteristics? "He" has emotions, reason, a gender lol, a physical body if you take into account the Bible stories... In short, he's just a superhuman, not a God at all. I'd expect a God to have zero emotions, zero reason, to be a just a timeless, spaceless, brainless first cause. And this is the only kind of "God" I believe it's reasonable to argue for - one completely alien to us and our perspectives. Who came up with the idea that a god would have any particular interest in life, and why, I don't know, but I don't see why It would. Someone would need VERY good reasons to explain that stuff away lol. My argument against angels is very much the same, but the biggest argument against them is an argument against God.

    I wrote that very badly as I'm in a rush, but I think it's understandable haha.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    It doesn't make sense to me, for the same reason that the Christian god doesn't make sense. These are apparently magical beings that came from nowhere just on the whim of another magical being. No problem so far. But why does God have sooo many human characteristics? "He" has emotions, reason, a gender lol, a physical body if you take into account the Bible stories... In short, he's just a superhuman, not a God at all. I'd expect a God to have zero emotions, zero reason, to be a just a timeless, spaceless, brainless first cause. And this is the only kind of "God" I believe it's reasonable to argue for - one completely alien to us and our perspectives. Who came up with the idea that a god would have any particular interest in life, and why, I don't know, but I don't see why It would. Someone would need VERY good reasons to explain that stuff away lol. My argument against angels is very much the same, but the biggest argument against them is an argument against God.

    I wrote that very badly as I'm in a rush, but I think it's understandable haha.
    No, I think its well written, and I agree.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    No, I think its well written, and I agree.
    Haha good, then I don't even need to go into the idea of Good and Evil, which is my second argument against Christianity/Judaism/Islam (and whatever other gods are similar).

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