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  1. #71
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post

    so is the bible.
    I agree. Did you think I wouldn't?
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

  2. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    I'm happy to change my mind or explain myself if you give me good reasons to. I'm not really sure what falsehoods you're talking about though.
    I dont believe you are, perhaps on some level you know that too, I've discussed with the best of them and know the various tricks to pull to appear open minded and present your opponent as lacking any argument.

    Although we are not opponents. You have made bold pronouncements about being rational, of the sensible english class who are influenced more by Harry Potter than the cornerstones of western civilisation and I've accepted that, I think is depressing but you dont, I dont accept you're implied dichotomy that I and my beliefs are irrational though.

    Why is the burden of proof upon me though? Besides it being a common enough debate and disputation tactic to do so? I've not made a bold assertion whereas you have, without it being persuasive or supported by evidence I'd add.

    Anyway, I've heard it all before. I hope you find what you're looking for and that you're blinkers dont stop you.

  3. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    Well your starting position here is a belief in the Christian god. If I were to share this belief, the distinction would be nonsensical to me as well! We also can't discuss the existence of God to determine things here, as that would derail the thread terribly.
    You could choose to frame a debate that way, I'm not sure that you could read that into what I wrote, for instance I did not mention Christianity but in reality I was responding to your dichotomy of God vs. Humanity, either one or the other is the inspiration and they are mutually exclusive, its not something I would accept.

    I agree that, In Britain, the bible has a very large and multileveled impact on our culture. To say that the very thinking patterns of our brains have been formed by the bible seem to be an exaggeration. For one thing, it seems unlikely the bible could have such a great hold on our collective consciousness considering vast swaths of the British public now overtly reject its most fundamental beliefs. How could this be so if our very thoughts, that which would determine belief, were already formed by the text?
    You know I was going to hunt down a few secular, even staunchly athiest sources which stated the ways in which the bible and religious tradition had patterned the brain, the most recent of which I think was one of those cartoons on youtube which has a lecture set to an emerging sketch, which I think was about emerging empathetic culture.

    Then I decided why the hell would I bother, you seem pretty set in your beliefs and happy about that, any information which I can provide to the contrary you're not going to want to hear and doing so will probably only serve to further entrench you in your present opinions as opposed to inspire you to think again or more carefully examine the conclusions you've already reached and cherish. So, I guess it was a misjudgement on my part to respond in the first place.

  4. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    See post 64.
    You dont believe that's rational?

    Well you're young and perhaps I'll speak to you once you've grown up a bit, had some opportunity to do some reading which stretches you beyond the comfortable confines you're inhabiting now, until then.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont believe you are, perhaps on some level you know that too, I've discussed with the best of them and know the various tricks to pull to appear open minded and present your opponent as lacking any argument.

    Although we are not opponents. You have made bold pronouncements about being rational, of the sensible english class who are influenced more by Harry Potter than the cornerstones of western civilisation and I've accepted that, I think is depressing but you dont, I dont accept you're implied dichotomy that I and my beliefs are irrational though.

    Why is the burden of proof upon me though? Besides it being a common enough debate and disputation tactic to do so? I've not made a bold assertion whereas you have, without it being persuasive or supported by evidence I'd add.

    Anyway, I've heard it all before. I hope you find what you're looking for and that you're blinkers dont stop you.
    All that matters to me is that I know I'm looking for the truth. Whether you believe I am or not is not my concern. I am not anyone else you've ever spoken to. I can't say whether you lack arguments or not, as I haven't heard any from you.

    The thing about English people being more rational or whatever was a joke. Sorry if you took that the wrong way. They are just more reasonable in this specific topic. I wouldn't say I was perfectly rational, but I'm certainly more rational than most.

    I take it by "cornerstone of western civilisation" you mean the Bible - a book giving the strange views of a random, ignorant, middle-eastern desert tribe living 2,000 years ago (and more)?

    As I said, I don't really know what you believe so i can't say for sure. But if it's anything close to the general view of Christianity then I'd say your views were irrational, yes.

    I'm not even asking you to prove it, to be honest. Just give me good reasons to believe your thoughts are true, and I'll be converted!

    What bold assertion have I made?

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Can there be such a thing?

    I consider Shakespeare, Dante, Dore and all the other great works of art and literature to be works of God aswell as man, in fact to draw the distinction is a strange one which makes no sense to me at all.

    The athiest reverence for the bible as literature gets close the purpose is to diminish its significance as divine or a key to thinking and decision making.

    That does not approach the understanding of the bible as a key to western culture and civilisation, the very language and thinking and patterning of the brain have been determined by the book, it has frankly incredible psychological and sociological importance which it incomparable to any work of literature since, I dont believe that Shakespeare even approaches it, although it is great in its own way.

    The bloodless dead hand of atheism will do a lot of intellectual harm before it is done attempting to erase things of great importance from the collective memory.
    Why do you believe there's a god - and, more importantly, a God who is into literature? And why would a god want to collaborate?

    Of course. And that is a great thing.

    You seriously believe it's better than the entire works of Shakespeare? Mein Kampf had great importance for people too.

    I'm an agnostic, so I can't comment on the last part.

  7. #77
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    Mein Kampf had great importance for people too.
    On people of a society which lastes from 1933 to 1945. It was a work of propagada and had no lasting impact on society's long term thinking. My point? I agree with you actually when you argue that we need to get the times, that things have changed(if thats what you're argueing). But nontheless I think the bible had more of a "lasting" impact than works of propaganda by 20th century dictators, mainly because its impact was progessive its influence was more pervasive than that of Mein Kampf. So yes, it might not have the hold it once did on people, but the influence is still there.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    On people of a society which lastes from 1933 to 1945. It was a work of propagada and had no lasting impact on society's long term thinking. My point? I agree with you actually when you argue that we need to get the times, that things have changed(if thats what you're argueing). But nontheless I think the bible had more of a "lasting" impact than works of propaganda by 20th century dictators, mainly because its impact was progessive its influence was more pervasive than that of Mein Kampf. So yes, it might not have the hold it once did on people, but the influence is still there.
    Are you suggesting the Bible wasn't a work of propaganda? Hopefully the Bible and Qur'an won't have to much of an impact long term too. Whether it had a positive or negative impact on mankind is entirely irrelevant. What matters is whether the things it claims are true.

  9. #79
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    Are you suggesting the Bible wasn't a work of propaganda? Hopefully the Bible and Qur'an won't have to much of an impact long term too. Whether it had a positive or negative impact on mankind is entirely irrelevant. What matters is whether the things it claims are true.
    Everything is propagada. And I disagree, it matters that it had an impact on humanity. Because in this world nothing is true, everything is perspective. What matters is that for a time, people believed it to be true. Because thats what shapes humanity today and effects our good or bad actions.
    Last edited by Typh0n; 05-15-2013 at 10:53 AM. Reason: typos

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Everything is propagada. And I disagree, it matters that it had an impact on humanity. Because in this world nothing is true, everything is perspective. What matters is that for a time, people believed it to be true. Because thats what shapes humanity today and effects our good or bad actions.
    I disagree, truth does exist. But from our limited perspective as humans it can be very hard to find and grasp. No reason we shouldn't try though.

    I'm not so interested in what shapes humanity or anything like that (or at least not in this context), and I don't believe in Good or Bad actions.

    I don't really see such a big difference in our views [so far] to be honest.

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