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  1. #61
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    I'm not sure that means anything. The factory made the car, but it doesn't follow from that the best place for the car to stay is in the factory. The Bible is England's past and therefore it is set in time, honoring or not honoring it in the present will not erode the past so our decision to do so must be based on current functionality and the truth of the Bible in itself. Besides, Shakespeare is humanity's achievement, not God's.
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

  2. #62
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    Well to be honest trying to evaluate art and literature is a pretty pointless thing to do. All it ever comes down to is personal feelings. And mine tell me that I prefer Harry Potter. I also prefer many other books. You'll like different ones. Objectively speaking, all books are just words on paper with no "worth" whatever. So what?

    JK Rowling's work isn't so original. But neither was the Bible. Originality has nothing to do with the quality of a work of fiction. It helps, but there are other more important things - like the author's ability to tell a good story. Jane Austen was one of the least original writers you can think of - yet she was still great.

    Btw for a better ancient "spaghetti" book read the Arabian Nights. Far superior to the Bible in every way!


    On another note, almost all the best stories are written by a single author following their vision. Usually when a team of writers write something it's either only occasionally good and mainly average (like Doctor Who), or complete junk.
    I can honestly say that reading your posts since you entered this thread has been truly depressing.

    I'm not aiming to be offensive in saying so, I think that you probably represent contemporary opinion very well and that is truly depressing.

    Nowhere do I see any real contemporaries or comrades when it comes to my opinions but lots of reminders that I have to choose between two very flawed "camps" more or less, looking for the lesser evil, and no one ever wanted to live or die for "the lesser evil".

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I can honestly say that reading your posts since you entered this thread has been truly depressing.

    I'm not aiming to be offensive in saying so, I think that you probably represent contemporary opinion very well and that is truly depressing.

    Nowhere do I see any real contemporaries or comrades when it comes to my opinions but lots of reminders that I have to choose between two very flawed "camps" more or less, looking for the lesser evil, and no one ever wanted to live or die for "the lesser evil".
    Lol well if you're happy to believe something just because it makes you happy go ahead, but don't expect rational people to agree with you.

    May I just ask what you find so distressingly depressing?

    And what are these opinions you're talking about?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    I'm not sure that means anything. The factory made the car, but it doesn't follow from that the best place for the car to stay is in the factory. The Bible is England's past and therefore it is set in time, honoring or not honoring it in the present will not erode the past so our decision to do so must be based on current functionality and the truth of the Bible in itself. Besides, Shakespeare is humanity's achievement, not God's.
    Can there be such a thing?

    I consider Shakespeare, Dante, Dore and all the other great works of art and literature to be works of God aswell as man, in fact to draw the distinction is a strange one which makes no sense to me at all.

    The athiest reverence for the bible as literature gets close the purpose is to diminish its significance as divine or a key to thinking and decision making.

    That does not approach the understanding of the bible as a key to western culture and civilisation, the very language and thinking and patterning of the brain have been determined by the book, it has frankly incredible psychological and sociological importance which it incomparable to any work of literature since, I dont believe that Shakespeare even approaches it, although it is great in its own way.

    The bloodless dead hand of atheism will do a lot of intellectual harm before it is done attempting to erase things of great importance from the collective memory.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    Lol well if you're happy to believe something just because it makes you happy go ahead, but don't expect rational people to agree with you.

    May I just ask what you find so distressingly depressing?

    And what are these opinions you're talking about?
    I find it depressing, not distressing, I find it depressing because you are stating uncritically and with confidence things I consider pretty obvious falsehoods.

    I dont believe anything because "it makes me happy", it is precisely because I do not and actually can not that I hold most of opinions I do. They are all unpopular and conform to just about nothing in the world today (or perhaps any other time, hence the title of my blog).

    I'm envious of how some people I know can accept some of the ideas they do, although Bertrand Russell (I know he was an athiest) said to envy no one who lives in a fools paradise their state because only a fool would live there.

    My beliefs are entirely rational. Exclusively so.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I find it depressing, not distressing, I find it depressing because you are stating uncritically and with confidence things I consider pretty obvious falsehoods.

    I dont believe anything because "it makes me happy", it is precisely because I do not and actually can not that I hold most of opinions I do. They are all unpopular and conform to just about nothing in the world today (or perhaps any other time, hence the title of my blog).

    I'm envious of how some people I know can accept some of the ideas they do, although Bertrand Russell (I know he was an athiest) said to envy no one who lives in a fools paradise their state because only a fool would live there.

    My beliefs are entirely rational. Exclusively so.
    I'm happy to change my mind or explain myself if you give me good reasons to. I'm not really sure what falsehoods you're talking about though.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    Well to be honest trying to evaluate art and literature is a pretty pointless thing to do. All it ever comes down to is personal feelings. And mine tell me that I prefer Harry Potter. I also prefer many other books. You'll like different ones. Objectively speaking, all books are just words on paper with no "worth" whatever. So what?

    that's BS: your entertainment value is a matter of personal feeling, but any analysis of society is going to be fundamentally incomplete without tracing back on it's basic concepts, the meme's and the cultural impact. pieces of fiction have inspired technology & political attitudes, they helped raise & shape the mentality of many of the people who shaped society, from both the bottom up and the top down. they deliver messages which have value in terms of how people receive them and react to them (regardless if the messages are true).

    you won't really understand human society without understanding religion, and for that matter you can't understand anglo saxon society without shakespeare, and to a much smaller extent you won't be able to understand the dork culture of SETI without odyssey 2001. gaining understanding has value as utility - contributing to your ability to better function within that society, ranging from the ideas you can build on to the depths and compression level of communicating to the people around you. a piece of fiction has more value than how much fun you had while consuming it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    Besides, Shakespeare is humanity's achievement, not God's.
    so is the bible.

  8. #68
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Can there be such a thing?

    I consider Shakespeare, Dante, Dore and all the other great works of art and literature to be works of God aswell as man, in fact to draw the distinction is a strange one which makes no sense to me at all.

    The athiest reverence for the bible as literature gets close the purpose is to diminish its significance as divine or a key to thinking and decision making.
    Well your starting position here is a belief in the Christian god. If I were to share this belief, the distinction would be nonsensical to me as well! We also can't discuss the existence of God to determine things here, as that would derail the thread terribly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That does not approach the understanding of the bible as a key to western culture and civilisation, the very language and thinking and patterning of the brain have been determined by the book, it has frankly incredible psychological and sociological importance which it incomparable to any work of literature since, I dont believe that Shakespeare even approaches it, although it is great in its own way.

    The bloodless dead hand of atheism will do a lot of intellectual harm before it is done attempting to erase things of great importance from the collective memory.
    I agree that, In Britain, the bible has a very large and multileveled impact on our culture. To say that the very thinking patterns of our brains have been formed by the bible seem to be an exaggeration. For one thing, it seems unlikely the bible could have such a great hold on our collective consciousness considering vast swaths of the British public now overtly reject its most fundamental beliefs. How could this be so if our very thoughts, that which would determine belief, were already formed by the text?
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that's BS: your entertainment value is a matter of personal feeling, but any analysis of society is going to be fundamentally incomplete without tracing back on it's basic concepts, the meme's and the cultural impact. pieces of fiction have inspired technology & political attitudes, they helped raise & shape the mentality of many of the people who shaped society, from both the bottom up and the top down. they deliver messages which have value in terms of how people receive them and react to them (regardless if the messages are true).

    you won't really understand human society without understanding religion, and for that matter you can't understand anglo saxon society without shakespeare, and to a much smaller extent you won't be able to understand the dork culture of SETI without odyssey 2001. gaining understanding has value as utility - contributing to your ability to better function within that society, ranging from the ideas you can build on to the depths and compression level of communicating to the people around you. a piece of fiction has more value than how much fun you had while consuming it.



    .
    All those things are very interesting, but have nothing to do with the value of a work of literature as a work of literature. Why does Informative equal Good?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post

    My beliefs are entirely rational. Exclusively so.
    See post 64.

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