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Who believes in Angels?

Beorn

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hmm, the only encounter i remember that implies that description is jacob wrestling the angel & grabbing onto it's heel as it tries to fly away.

Jacob-angel.jpg


in other cases it's all sort left for the imagination, though in eiyov it's implied that they are at least somewhat human - i mean, they can fit comfortable in his house, take a sit, wine & dine... i'd imagine if they came as giant twirling eyeball wheels that wouldn't be as easy.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophanim



(FYI, no i don't believe in angels, but too much coding taxed my Ti filter, and in what's left is the Ne world where everything is possible).

I'm not sure why angels are always portrayed as having wings. No actual angels are ever described as having wings (at least in my Protestant version of the bible). Only the ornamental cherubims on the Ark had wings.
 

cafe

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hmm, the only encounter i remember that implies that description is jacob wrestling the angel & grabbing onto it's heel as it tries to fly away.

Jacob-angel.jpg


in other cases it's all sort left for the imagination, though in eiyov it's implied that they are at least somewhat human - i mean, they can fit comfortable in his house, take a sit, wine & dine... i'd imagine if they came as giant twirling eyeball wheels that wouldn't be as easy.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophanim



(FYI, no i don't believe in angels, but too much coding taxed my Ti filter, and in what's left is the Ne world where everything is possible).
I'm going to try to pull up what I can from Sunday school, etc. I only know the Protestant Cannon and my religion does not put much emphasis on teaching about angels, so this is all I've got:

Satan was a very beautiful angel called Lucifer that was involved in music or praise when he rebelled against God along with a third of the angels. They got kicked out of heaven and are now demons. Or that's how my church teaches it.

There was angel with a flaming sword posted to keep people out of the Garden of Eden after Adam and Eve got kicked out.

Sons of God, which may have been some kind of angels, hooked up with human women and their children were giants. They were supposed to have been killed in the flood, but giants are talked about later on, like when David killed Goliath. If those were angels, they almost had to be some kind of humanoid.

Abraham had at least one encounter with angels and they looked like men. That was when he was trying to talk them out of destroying Sodom and Gomorrah. I can't remember if it was a separate incident when he told him that Sarai/Sarah would have a son.

The incident you described was with Jacob/Israel.

The angel of death that struck the firstborn of Egypt isn't described.

At least one angel appeared to Gideon when there was conflict with Midian.

Horses and chariots of fire showed up when Israel was at war in Elisha's time.

An angel appeared in the furnace Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego got thrown into for not worshiping a golden idol in Babylon.

I think one appeared to Daniel in the book of Daniel when he was praying that God would let the Jews free from captivity in Babylon so they could go back to Judea. I can't remember if he looked like something other than a man. And I'm not sure if that was when he was having a dream or a vision or if it was just normal like talking to anybody.

I think Ezekiel saw some of the weirder looking heavenly beings in visions, but I'm not real strong on any of the prophetic books, so I'm not certain about that.

An angel appeared to Zechariah, John the Baptists's dad. I think that angel was scary if not shiny.

One appeared to Mary before she conceived Jesus. He was apparently scary. Then twice to Joseph in dreams -- once to tell him Mary wasn't messing around on him and another to tell him to flee to Egypt before the Slaughter of the Innocents. And angels appeared to shepherds when Jesus was born. They were shiny and scary. And, I think, to the Magi in a dream to tell them to not tell Herod where they found baby Jesus.

Angels took care of Jesus after his temptation in the desert, but they aren't described.

Then there are a lot of crazy things happening in the book of Revelations some of which involve angels.

I'm sure I missed quite a few instances, but my brain thinks I should sleep soon and isn't cooperating anymore.
 

Mole

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Angels and Demons

Trust me, as I cross my heart and hope to die, just as I believe in the nine levels of angels, I believe in all the demons. Here they are, meet them-

Aamon or Amon (Christian demonology)
Abaddon/Apollyon (Christian demonology)
Abalam (Christian demonology)
Abezethibou (Testament of Solomon)
Abraxas (Gnosticism)
Abyzou (Jewish mythology)
Adramelech (Assyrian mythology, Christian demonology)
Aeshma (Zoroastrianism)
Agaliarept (Jewish mythology)
Agrat Bat Mahlat (Jewish demonology)
Agares (Christian demonology)
Agiel (Jewish mythology)
Ahriman/Angra Mainyu (Zoroastrianism)
Aim/Haborym (Christian demonology)
Aka Manah/Akem Manah/Akoman/Akvan (Zoroastrianism)
Ala (Slavic mythology)
Alal (Chaldean mythology)
Alastor (Christian demonology)
Alloces/Allocer (Christian demonology)
Allu (Akkadian mythology)
Amaymon (Christian demonology)
Amdusias (Christian demonology)
Ammut (Egyptian mythology)
Amon (Christian demonology)
Amy (Christian demonology)
Anamalech (Assyrian mythology)
Andhaka (Hindu mythology)
Andras (Christian demonology)
Andrealphus (Christian demonology)
Andromalius (Christian demonology)
Antichrist (Christian demonology)
Anzu (Sumerian mythology)
Apep (a.k.a. Apophis) (Egyptian mythology)
Armaros (Jewish demonology)
Archon (Gnosticism)
Asag (Sumerian demonology)
Asakku (Babylonian mythology)
Asb'el (Jewish mythology)
Asmodai/Asmodeus (Jewish folklore and Christian mythology)
Astaroth (Christian demonology)
Asura (Hindu mythology)
Azazel / Azaz'el (Jewish demonology)
Azi Dahaka/Dahak (Zoroastrianism)
B [edit]Baal/Bael (Christian demonology)
Balam (Christian demonology)
Balberith (Jewish demonology)
Bali Raj (Hindu mythology)
Banshee (Irish mythology)
Baphomet (Christian folklore)
Barbas (Christian demonology)
Barbatos (Christian demonology)
Bathin/Mathim/Bathym/Marthim (Christian demonology)
Beball (Christian demonology)
Beelzebub (Jewish demonology, Christian demonology)
Behemoth (Jewish demonology)
Belial (Jewish demonology, Christian demonology)
Beleth (Christian demonology)
Belphegor (Christian demonology)
Berith/Beherit (Phoenician mythology, Christian demonology)
Bhūta (Sanskrit)
Bies (Slavic mythology)
Bifrons (Christian demonology)
Boruta (Slavic mythology)
Botis (Christian demonology)
Buer (Christian demonology)
Bukavac (Slavic mythology)
Bune (Christian mythology)
Bushyasta (Zoroastrianism)
C [edit]Caim/Camio (Christian demonology)
Carabia (Christian demonology)
Charun (Etruscan mythology)
Chemosh (Moabite mythology)
Choronzon (Thelema)
Cimejes/Kimaris/Cimeies (Christian demonology)
Corson (Christian demonology)
Crocell/Procell (Christian demonology)
Culsu (Etruscan mythology)
D [edit]Daeva (Zoroastrianism demonology)
Dagon (Semitic mythology)
Dajjal (Islamic demonology)
Dantalion (Christian demonology)
Danjal (Jewish mythology)
Dasa (Hindu mythology)
Davy Jones (nautical folklore)
Decarabia (Christian demonology)
Demiurge (Gnosticism)
Demogorgon (Christian demonology)
Devil (Christian demonology)
Div-e Sepid (Persian mythology)
Drekavac (Slavic mythology)
Dzoavits (Native American mythology)
E [edit]Eligos (Christian demonology)
Eisheth (Jewish demonology)
Empusa (Greek mythology)
Euryale (Greek mythology)
Eurynomos (Greek mythology)
Eblis (Islamic demonology)
F [edit]Familiars (Christian demonology)
Focalor (Christian demonology)
Foras/Forcas/Forras/ (Christian demonology)
Forneus (Christian demonology)
Furcas/Forcas (Christian demonology)
Furfur (Christian demonology)
G [edit]Gaap (Christian demonology)
Gader'el (Jewish demonology)
Gaki (Japanese mythology)
Gamigin (Christian demonology)
Gello (Greek mythology, Christian mythology)
Ghoul (Arabian and several other mythologies)
Glasya-Labolas/Caacrinolaas/Caassimolar/Classyalabolas/Glassia-labolis (Christian demonology)
Gorgon (Greek mythology)
Gremory/Gomory (Christian demonology)
Grigori (Jewish demonology)
Gualichu (Mapuche mythology)
Guayota (Guanche mythology)
Gusion/Gusoin/Gusoyn (Christian demonology)
H [edit]Haagenti (Christian demonology)
Halphas/Malthus (Christian demonology)
Harpy (Greek mythology)
Haures/Flauros/Flavros/Hauras/Havres (Christian demonology)
Humbaba (Sumerian mythology, Akkadian mythology)
I [edit]Ifrit (Islamic mythology)
Incubus (Christian demonology, Chaldean mythology, Jewish folklore)
Ipos/Ipes (Christian demonology)
Iblis (Islamic demonology)(Satan)
J [edit]Jinn (Islamic demonology)
Jikininki (Japanese mythology)
K [edit]Kabandha/Kabhanda (Hinduism)
Kasadya (Jewish demonology)
Kokb'ael (Jewish demonology)
Kali (Hindu mythology)
Kroni (Ayyavazhi demonology)
Krampus (Germanic-Christian Demonology)
L [edit]Labal (Christian demonology)
Lady Midday (Slavic mythology)
Lamashtu (Sumerian mythology)
Lamia (Bulgarian folklore, Christian demonology and Greek mythology)
Latiangle (Christian demonology)
Legion (Christian demonology)
Lechies (Slavic mythology)
Leyak (Indonesian mythology)
Lempo (Finnish mythology)
Leraje/Leraie (Christian demonology)
Leviathan (Jewish demonology, Christian demonology)
Lili/Lilin/Lilim (Jewish demonology)
Lilith (Sumerian mythology, Akkadian mythology, Jewish folklore)
Lucifer (Christian demonology)
Lucifuge Rofocale (Christian demonology)
M [edit]Malphas (Christian demonology)
Mammon (Christian demonology)
Mara (Buddhist mythology)
Maricha(Hindu mythology)
Marax/Morax/Foraii (Christian demonology)
Marbas (Christian demonology)
Marchosias (Christian demonology)
Masih ad-Dajjal/Ad-Dajjal/Dajjal (Islamic eschatology)
Mastema (Jewish demonology)
Medusa (Greek mythology)
Mephistopheles (Christian folklore, German folklore)
Merihem (Christian demonology)
Moloch (Christian demonology)
Murmur (Christian demonology)
N [edit]Naamah (demon) (Jewish demonology)
Naberius/Cerbere (Christian demonology)
Naberus (Christian demonology)
Naphula (Christian demonology)
Ninurta (Sumerian mythology, Akkadian mythology)
Namtar (Sumerian mythology
O [edit]Onoskelis (Testament of Solomon)
Oray (Christian demonology)
Orcus (Roman mythology, later Christian demonology)
Orias (Christian demonology)
Oriax (Christian demonology)
Ornias (Testament of Solomon)
Orobas (Christian demonology)
Orobos (Christian demonology)
Ose (Christian demonology)
Ördög (Hungarian mythology)
P [edit]Paimon (Christian demonology)
Paimonia (Christian demonology)
Paymon (Christian demonology)
Pazuzu (Akkadian mythology, Sumerian mythology)
Phenex (Christian demonology)
Penemue (Jewish and Christian demonology)
Pithius (Christian demonology)
Pruflas (Christian demonology)
Pruslas (Christian demonology)
Puloman (Hindu demonology)
Purson/Curson (Christian demonology)
Q [edit]R [edit]Rahab (Jewish folklore)
Raim (Christian demonology)
Raum (Christian demonology)
Ronove (Christian demonology)
Ronwe (Christian demonology)
Rusalka (Slavic mythology)
Rakshasa (Hinduism)
Rangda (Hinduism)
Ravan (Hinduism)
S [edit]Sabnock (Christian demonology)
Saleos (Christian demonology)
Samael (Jewish demonology)
Satan (or Shaytan) (Jewish demonology, Christian demonology, Islamic demonology)
Salpsan[1]
Scox (Christian demonology)
Seir (Christian demonology)
Semyaz (Jewish demonology)
Shax/Chax (Christian demonology)
Shedim (Jewish folklore)
Sitri (Christian demonology)
Sthenno (Greek mythology)
Stolas/Solas (Christian demonology)
Succubus (Sumerian mythology, Akkadian mythology, Jewish folklore, Christian demonology)
Surgat (Christian demonology)
T [edit]Tannin (Jewish demonology)
U [edit]Ukobach (Christian demonology)
Uvall (Christian demonology)
V [edit]Valac (Christian demonology)
Valefar/Malaphar/Malephar (Christian demonology)
Vapula (Christian demonology)
Vassago (Christian demonology)
Vepar (Christian demonology)
Vephar (Christian demonology)
Vine (Christian demonology)
W [edit]X [edit]Xaphan (Christian demonology)
Xezbeth (demonology)[clarification needed]
Y [edit]Yeqon
Yeter'el
Z [edit]Zagan (Christian demonology)
Zepar (Christian demonology)
Ziminiar (Christian demonology)

And don't forget that every ideology has a demonology.
 

Mole

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The Unconverted

You forgot this one:

Carl Jung (Freudian mythology)

It's true, Carl Jung is a demon in my ideology. And I try and I try to convert everyone to my ideology, but I am preaching to the unconverted.
 

Blackmail!

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It's true, Carl Jung is a demon in my ideology. And I try and I try to convert everyone to my ideology, but I am preaching to the unconverted.

And don't forget Plato's daemon too (δαίμων)...

"'What would Eros then be?' I said. 'A mortal?'
"'Hardly that.'
"'Well, what then?'
"'Just as before,' she said, 'between mortal and immortal.'
"'What is that, Diotima?'
"'A great daemon, Socrates, for everything daemonic is
between god and mortal.'
"'With what kind of power?' I said.
"'Interpreting and ferrying to gods things from human beings
and to human beings things from gods: the requests and sacri-
fices of human beings, the orders and exchanges-for-sacrifices of
gods; for it is in the middle of both and fills up the interval so
that the whole itself has been bound together by it. Through this
proceeds all divination and the art of the priests who deal with
sacrifices, initiatory rituals, incantations, and every kind of sooth-
saying and magic. A god does not mingle with a human being;
but through this occurs the whole intercourse and conversation of
gods with human beings while they are awake and asleep. And
he who is wise in things like this is a daemonic man; but he who
is wise in anything else concerning either arts or handicrafts is
vulgar and low. These daemons are many and of all kinds; and
one of them is Eros.'


(Symposium -265)
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Angels having wings is probably something that was borrowed from Zoroastrian (Persian) iconography.

ULCzoroaster.jpg


I like the weird eye-wheel things better. Much better than creepy harp-playing babies. I heard somewhere that all the baby angels are supposed to be unbaptized babies that have to serve God in penance for not being baptised. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? I think it's a Catholic thing.
 

Mole

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I heard somewhere that all the baby angels are supposed to be unbaptized babies that have to serve God in penance for not being baptised. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? I think it's a Catholic thing.

Yeah, it's called Limbo. It's where unbaptised babies go. But get this! After centuries of Limbo, a few years ago the Vatican abolished Limbo!

And what I want to know is, what happened to all the babies?
 

En Gallop

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Lol I've always seen Jesus as more of a vampire than a zombie, because of superstrength to move the boulder, the fact he can fly, and that he still had most of his mental faculties after death. Also, there was a period where he was really "dead" before he reanimated, which is far from rare in vampire lore. :)
 

En Gallop

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I was watching Hugh Laurie on a tour of the US around big blues sites, he really digs that scene, anyway he said that the US and UK differ by about five percent, that in most things the US was five percent more grilled cheese or whatever but that when it came to religion the US was 3000 percent more. To give an example he said people in the US believe in angels, he said that you'd have to work pretty hard to find someone in the UK who believed in angels, that it wouldnt be in the same street as you anyway.

So that had me wondering two things, first of all, do you believe in angels? Second, is that the most implausible thing about Christianity or religion and if it isnt what is in your opinion?

Thank GOD the English have sense then. :D I'm English, and do not believe angels exist. Neither do any of my friends at college.

Not really. The idea that God would have human qualities like emotions and reason.
 

Beorn

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Thank GOD the English have sense then. :D I'm English, and do not believe angels exist. Neither do any of my friends at college.

Not really. The idea that God would have human qualities like emotions and reason.



“England has two books, the Bible and Shakespeare. England made Shakespeare,but the Bible made England.”
― Victor Hugo

What will become of that wonderful island now that the England that made Shakespeare is gone?
 

cafe

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Yeah, it's called Limbo. It's where unbaptised babies go. But get this! After centuries of Limbo, a few years ago the Vatican abolished Limbo!

And what I want to know is, what happened to all the babies?
Maybe they moved on to musical chairs or charades?
 

En Gallop

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“England has two books, the Bible and Shakespeare. England made Shakespeare,but the Bible made England.”
― Victor Hugo

What will become of that wonderful island now that the England that made Shakespeare is gone?

It's much better now than in Shakespeare's time. The Bible is a masterpiece of ancient literature (esp. the Jewish Old Testament), but it doesn't mean it's true... Harry Potter is an even better book.
 

Beorn

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The Bible is a masterpiece of ancient literature... Harry Potter is an even better book.

The only level on which that could be true is on a level of pure amusement. You are clearly not better off then people in the 16th century if you primarily judge a book by its level of amusement. I don't care how many more conveniences you have. If you can't properly evaluate literature you are poor and have very little indeed.
 
Last edited:

En Gallop

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The only level on which that could be true is on a level of pure amusement. You are clearly not better off then people in the 16th century if you only judge a book by its level of amusement. I don't care how many more conveniences you have. If you can't properly evaluate literature you are poor and have very little indeed.

The characters are much more developed in H.P. and it therefore gives a much deeper insight into the human psyche. Also, the intercharacter relationships are brilliantly done, whereas they suck in the Bible.

From an entertainment perspective, H.P. is much more enjoyable and moving.

From a plot perspective, H.P. is at times running with similar themes, but it does it in a much more skillful and intelligent way.

H.P. is not giving any claims that it believes are real, whereas the Bible actually asks you to believe in demons, angels, vampires, gods, and prophets with no evidence or reason to back them up. (Personally, I don't think the original thinkers intended this at all, but I seem to be a minority there).

Why do you think The Bible is better? Just because it's older and has more respect due to tradition? Storytelling's evolved. Live with it. :)
 

En Gallop

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The only level on which that could be true is on a level of pure amusement. You are clearly not better off then people in the 16th century if you only judge a book by its level of amusement. I don't care how many more conveniences you have. If you can't properly evaluate literature you are poor and have very little indeed.

I never said I was! Fiction has always been about cool stories, characters, and entertainment. If you want to learn anything read non-fiction (the Bible is between the two types, being a kind of collection of philosophical/spiritual short fiction stories - the only parts worth reading anyway).
 
S

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[MENTION=18250]En Gallop[/MENTION] - i'd disagree - have you ever read God: A Biography by Jack Miles[FONT=arial, sans-serif] ? it's really well thought out experiment of analyzing god as a literature character.[/FONT]

i also think it a step further from the book, and say i find it extremely relevant to what you see with fiction today: for way too long every piece of fiction have being done by one author's vision, but now through team projects like computer gaming or long standing tv shows, you have an emerging story format of spaghetti fiction - many many little strands of plots made by many authors tied together in a loose ball. within that genre, the bible sort of represents the biggest piece of storytelling spaghetti of all times, with a hundred tie-ins to other mythologies. the demanding mentality of viewing the bible as an integrated piece pushes the literature culture altogether and gave us amazing literary devices, the world of harry potter is very much built on that heritage, a one's author's vision on a spaghetti ball of anything that can constitute magic. in itself harry potter doesn't quite deliver anything original in what it did do, only in what it didn't do. essentially [FONT=arial, sans-serif]its stand entirely on it's processors shoulders.[/FONT][FONT=arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
 

En Gallop

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[MENTION=18250]En Gallop[/MENTION] - i'd disagree - have you ever read God: A Biography by Jack Miles[FONT=arial, sans-serif] ? it's really well thought out experiment of analyzing god as a literature character.[/FONT]

i also think it a step further from the book, and say i find it extremely relevant to what you see with fiction today: for way too long every piece of fiction have being done by one author's vision, but now through team projects like computer gaming or long standing tv shows, you have an emerging story format of spaghetti fiction - many many little strands of plots made by many authors tied together in a loose ball. within that genre, the bible sort of represents the biggest piece of storytelling spaghetti of all times, with a hundred tie-ins to other mythologies. the demanding mentality of viewing the bible as an integrated piece pushes the literature culture altogether and gave us amazing literary devices, the world of harry potter is very much built on that heritage, a one's author's vision on a spaghetti ball of anything that can constitute magic. in itself harry potter doesn't quite deliver anything original in what it did do, only in what it didn't do. essentially [FONT=arial, sans-serif]its stand entirely on it's processors shoulders.[/FONT][FONT=arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

Well to be honest trying to evaluate art and literature is a pretty pointless thing to do. All it ever comes down to is personal feelings. And mine tell me that I prefer Harry Potter. I also prefer many other books. You'll like different ones. Objectively speaking, all books are just words on paper with no "worth" whatever. So what? :)

JK Rowling's work isn't so original. But neither was the Bible. Originality has nothing to do with the quality of a work of fiction. It helps, but there are other more important things - like the author's ability to tell a good story. Jane Austen was one of the least original writers you can think of - yet she was still great.

Btw for a better ancient "spaghetti" book read the Arabian Nights. Far superior to the Bible in every way! :)


On another note, almost all the best stories are written by a single author following their vision. Usually when a team of writers write something it's either only occasionally good and mainly average (like Doctor Who), or complete junk.
 

Lark

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“England has two books, the Bible and Shakespeare. England made Shakespeare,but the Bible made England.”
― Victor Hugo

What will become of that wonderful island now that the England that made Shakespeare is gone?

It is an athiest country now, with large ethnic minority enclaves of fundamentalist middle eastern inclinations.

It will be intresting to see the outcome of this "experiment", like other ones presently taking place elsewhere like the US, I believe their outcome will be as unfortunate as previous well intended attempts to make the world anew after the fashion of the time.
 
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