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Who believes in Angels?

Nicodemus

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Except it's not, because they had a robust view of calling, vocation, and God's sovereignty.

"If we look externally, there is a difference between washing dishes and preaching the Word of God, but as touching pleasing God, none at all" -William Tyndale

" Let the people of God comfort themselves in all cases by this doctrine of the divine decrees[God's Master plan]; and, amidst whatever befalls them, rest quietly and submissively in the bosom of God, considering that whatever comes or can come to pass, proceeds from the decree of their gracious friend and reconciled Father, who knows what is best for them, and will make all things work together for their good. O what a sweet and pleasant life would you have under the heaviest pressures of affliction, and what heavenly serenity and tranquillity of mind would you enjoy, would you cheerfully acquiesce in the good will and pleasure of God, and embrace every dispensation, how no matter how sharp it may be, because it is determined and appointed for you by the eternal counsel of his will!" - Thomas Boston

"The action of a shepherd keeping sheep is as good a work before God as a minister in preaching" -William Perkins

Heh even found this quote by Baxter who didn't believe in predestination, but individual salvation, yet he still valued the community and it was his value of the community and God that drive his work ethic:
"The public welfare, or the good of the many is to be valued above our own. Every man, therefore, is bound to do all he can for others, especially for the church and commonwealth" -Richard Baxter
I tried to recall what I was taught at school. I already said that I find the hypothesis too simplistic. However, quoting four people - some of debatable Puritan status - would not suffice to dissuade me if I cared to defend it.

The other point I wanted to make is that there always is a discrepancy between what people believe to believe or are (Catholic, for instance) and what they do believe and are (people who believe in 'a higher power' but nothing else). I think if only people who actually believed all the current version of Catholicism holds to be true were regarded as Catholics, there would be fewer Catholics in the world than Amazonian manatees.
 

Beorn

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I tried to recall what I was taught at school. I already said that I find the hypothesis too simplistic. However, quoting four people - some of debatable Puritan status - would not suffice to dissuade me if I cared to defend it.

Well, they're puritans, but they are from the old world. I could have thrown in Cotton Mather I suppose. For me it's a matter of preserving the integrity of the term "puritan" which has been dragged through streets for several generations. I don't doubt that there were descendants of the puritans (especially heading into the 19th century and industrial revolution) that were materialistic and were driven by a desire for success, but they departed from their Puritan heritage in belief and practice even while enjoying the spoils of the success of that belief and practice.

The other point I wanted to make is that there always is a discrepancy between what people believe to believe or are (Catholic, for instance) and what they do believe and are (people who believe in 'a higher power' but nothing else). I think if only people who actually believed all the current version of Catholicism holds to be true were regarded as Catholics, there would be fewer Catholics in the world than Amazonian manatees.

I suppose that would be true of nihilists, too, the ones that didn't kill themselves anyway.
 

cafe

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A lot of the modern day religious believers, protestant or catholic are going to be influenced by their cultural mileu as much as the next person, although I do know that the principle of individual conscience was much more important in Luther's ideas about salvation in his break with the RCC, at least initially, than anything else.
I'm pretty sure if you sat through some of the services I've sat through, you'd have a hard time not puking. I've been raised in the US and Evangelical and I want to puke sometimes. It's like Oprah. Possibly worse.
 

Nicodemus

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I suppose that would be true of nihilists, too, the ones that didn't kill themselves anyway.
There problem there is that no can give the definitive definition of nihilism whereas the Roman Catholic Church can determine what true Catholicism is.
 

Lark

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I'm pretty sure if you sat through some of the services I've sat through, you'd have a hard time not puking. I've been raised in the US and Evangelical and I want to puke sometimes. It's like Oprah. Possibly worse.

I could believe it, while I'm pretty sure of my own faith and tradition I've been to the services of others, christian and others but I've been to prayer meetings and services of baptists and presbytarians, of evangelicals too, what about them is it that makes you want to puke? Drama and confessionals?

I dont like the neurotic guilt of many religious, the RCC does that one well, I'm more tolerant of the individuals themselves now but it used to bug me how often I saw it coupled with confused traditionalism or conservatism.

I think everyone has something in their own faith that they dislike.
 

cafe

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I could believe it, while I'm pretty sure of my own faith and tradition I've been to the services of others, christian and others but I've been to prayer meetings and services of baptists and presbytarians, of evangelicals too, what about them is it that makes you want to puke? Drama and confessionals?

I dont like the neurotic guilt of many religious, the RCC does that one well, I'm more tolerant of the individuals themselves now but it used to bug me how often I saw it coupled with confused traditionalism or conservatism.

I think everyone has something in their own faith that they dislike.
It's more like a self-righteous motivational conference centered on ego than anything else.
 

Lark

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It's more like a self-righteous motivational conference centered on ego than anything else.

Oh yes, I think I know what you mean, yes, this can be more unique to some sorts of evangelism, ego stroking that they're the possessors of real truth and the keys to heaven.

I presume nothing about God, I'm always wary of any time this appears to happen and it does happen in all walks of life and faith.
 

cafe

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Oh yes, I think I know what you mean, yes, this can be more unique to some sorts of evangelism, ego stroking that they're the possessors of real truth and the keys to heaven.

I presume nothing about God, I'm always wary of any time this appears to happen and it does happen in all walks of life and faith.
Yeah. I think it's wiser not to presume. I imagine it does happen in all walks of life and faith. I just seem to have a hard time avoiding it in mine.
 

En Gallop

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Oh yes, I think I know what you mean, yes, this can be more unique to some sorts of evangelism, ego stroking that they're the possessors of real truth and the keys to heaven.

I presume nothing about God, I'm always wary of any time this appears to happen and it does happen in all walks of life and faith.

Other than that it exists, you mean? That's the biggest presumption of all.
 

Lark

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Yeah. I think it's wiser not to presume. I imagine it does happen in all walks of life and faith. I just seem to have a hard time avoiding it in mine.

I think its impossible to know the mind of God, in no small part because God is not like anything mankind has been able to comprehend, its almost a defining trait.

Could be that God has intended life, one life, as his gift to mankind and IT is heaven or meant to be, people spoil it but there is nothing else after death and no after life or resurrection and all the discussion or debate or assurity about the same is futile.

I presume nothing, I know the stories in the bible tell otherwise but maybe God felt that way then and has different ideas now, in fact my worst fear is not that God does not exist but does and has tired of humanity and left the earth a rock in space and started again elsewhere.

I once read a strange Philip K Dick book which had a sci fi theme but in which God after the crucifixion had experienced a split personality and amnesia or other problems of mind and went to inhabit a mountain on another planet. It sounds crazy but it was an amazing read.
 

cafe

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I think its impossible to know the mind of God, in no small part because God is not like anything mankind has been able to comprehend, its almost a defining trait.

Could be that God has intended life, one life, as his gift to mankind and IT is heaven or meant to be, people spoil it but there is nothing else after death and no after life or resurrection and all the discussion or debate or assurity about the same is futile.

I presume nothing, I know the stories in the bible tell otherwise but maybe God felt that way then and has different ideas now, in fact my worst fear is not that God does not exist but does and has tired of humanity and left the earth a rock in space and started again elsewhere.

I once read a strange Philip K Dick book which had a sci fi theme but in which God after the crucifixion had experienced a split personality and amnesia or other problems of mind and went to inhabit a mountain on another planet. It sounds crazy but it was an amazing read.
I really wouldn't blame him (or other pronoun).

I kind of figure we can't know for sure, but whether there is a God (or Gods) and whether that God is my God or somebody else's God or something nobody has thought of, I can't go wrong with following, to the best of my ability, Wheaton's Law: Don't be a dick. So my default is the religion in which I was raised, but I don't think that contradicts Wheaton's law. :laugh: Though I have to admit that some of my co-religionists would consider that compromising with the world or tolerating sin, etc.

If it turns out there is no God, I won't be sorry for trying to treat people right. If there is a God and it's not my God, most Gods seem to be cool with treating other people right, most of the time. If there is a God and that God is in favor of being a dick, I'll just have to accept whatever penalty there are for failing to be enough of a dick.

And when I fail at my own ethics and I am a dick, well, I am only human and we really aren't a very nice species.
 

Lark

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I really wouldn't blame him (or other pronoun).

I kind of figure we can't know for sure, but whether there is a God (or Gods) and whether that God is my God or somebody else's God or something nobody has thought of, I can't go wrong with following, to the best of my ability, Wheaton's Law: Don't be a dick. So my default is the religion in which I was raised, but I don't think that contradicts Wheaton's law. :laugh: Though I have to admit that some of my co-religionists would consider that compromising with the world or tolerating sin, etc.

If it turns out there is no God, I won't be sorry for trying to treat people right. If there is a God and it's not my God, most Gods seem to be cool with treating other people right, most of the time. If there is a God and that God is in favor of being a dick, I'll just have to accept whatever penalty there are for failing to be enough of a dick.

And when I fail at my own ethics and I am a dick, well, I am only human and we really aren't a very nice species.

Hmm, well, there is the ethical humanism which runs like a red thread through all religions, in some shape, and probably does so because it corresponds to something within human nature and emanates from it.

Although my thinking and feeling on religion has changes of late, those things remain important, however, less and less because they are ethical, human goods but more because they are also a homage to God, we all being made in his image and there being, rightly, passages in scriptures saying that no one can claim to love God who he has not seen and hate his neighbour who he has seen.

More and more my religious faith and practice is about searching for God, here and now, as I live, all the different world religions and their views on the same can be informing and enlightening on this score.

I cant believe there is a God in existence which wants or does evil or would reward it, since evil is negative, it is the abscence of something and that something is good and love which is God, in my understanding.
 

Mole

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Once we start to grasp the enormity of the universe, angels and gods start to fall into place.

It's plain we can't even grasp the size of our own galaxy, the Milky Way, never mind the other one hundred thousand million gallaxies accelerating away from us.

So being unable to comprehend reality, we retreat into angels and gods.
 

serenesam

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So that had me wondering two things, first of all, do you believe in angels? Second, is that the most implausible thing about Christianity or religion and if it isnt what is in your opinion?

Yes. Angels show up in almost every religion. I even consider Nike to be an angel. Look at her wings.
 
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