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  1. #161
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    No, I do not believe in angels, devils, and so on.

  2. #162
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Except it's not, because they had a robust view of calling, vocation, and God's sovereignty.

    "If we look externally, there is a difference between washing dishes and preaching the Word of God, but as touching pleasing God, none at all" -William Tyndale

    " Let the people of God comfort themselves in all cases by this doctrine of the divine decrees[God's Master plan]; and, amidst whatever befalls them, rest quietly and submissively in the bosom of God, considering that whatever comes or can come to pass, proceeds from the decree of their gracious friend and reconciled Father, who knows what is best for them, and will make all things work together for their good. O what a sweet and pleasant life would you have under the heaviest pressures of affliction, and what heavenly serenity and tranquillity of mind would you enjoy, would you cheerfully acquiesce in the good will and pleasure of God, and embrace every dispensation, how no matter how sharp it may be, because it is determined and appointed for you by the eternal counsel of his will!" - Thomas Boston

    "The action of a shepherd keeping sheep is as good a work before God as a minister in preaching" -William Perkins

    Heh even found this quote by Baxter who didn't believe in predestination, but individual salvation, yet he still valued the community and it was his value of the community and God that drive his work ethic:
    "The public welfare, or the good of the many is to be valued above our own. Every man, therefore, is bound to do all he can for others, especially for the church and commonwealth" -Richard Baxter
    I tried to recall what I was taught at school. I already said that I find the hypothesis too simplistic. However, quoting four people - some of debatable Puritan status - would not suffice to dissuade me if I cared to defend it.

    The other point I wanted to make is that there always is a discrepancy between what people believe to believe or are (Catholic, for instance) and what they do believe and are (people who believe in 'a higher power' but nothing else). I think if only people who actually believed all the current version of Catholicism holds to be true were regarded as Catholics, there would be fewer Catholics in the world than Amazonian manatees.

  3. #163
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I tried to recall what I was taught at school. I already said that I find the hypothesis too simplistic. However, quoting four people - some of debatable Puritan status - would not suffice to dissuade me if I cared to defend it.
    Well, they're puritans, but they are from the old world. I could have thrown in Cotton Mather I suppose. For me it's a matter of preserving the integrity of the term "puritan" which has been dragged through streets for several generations. I don't doubt that there were descendants of the puritans (especially heading into the 19th century and industrial revolution) that were materialistic and were driven by a desire for success, but they departed from their Puritan heritage in belief and practice even while enjoying the spoils of the success of that belief and practice.

    The other point I wanted to make is that there always is a discrepancy between what people believe to believe or are (Catholic, for instance) and what they do believe and are (people who believe in 'a higher power' but nothing else). I think if only people who actually believed all the current version of Catholicism holds to be true were regarded as Catholics, there would be fewer Catholics in the world than Amazonian manatees.
    I suppose that would be true of nihilists, too, the ones that didn't kill themselves anyway.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #164
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    A lot of the modern day religious believers, protestant or catholic are going to be influenced by their cultural mileu as much as the next person, although I do know that the principle of individual conscience was much more important in Luther's ideas about salvation in his break with the RCC, at least initially, than anything else.
    I'm pretty sure if you sat through some of the services I've sat through, you'd have a hard time not puking. I've been raised in the US and Evangelical and I want to puke sometimes. It's like Oprah. Possibly worse.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #165
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I suppose that would be true of nihilists, too, the ones that didn't kill themselves anyway.
    There problem there is that no can give the definitive definition of nihilism whereas the Roman Catholic Church can determine what true Catholicism is.

  6. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I'm pretty sure if you sat through some of the services I've sat through, you'd have a hard time not puking. I've been raised in the US and Evangelical and I want to puke sometimes. It's like Oprah. Possibly worse.
    I could believe it, while I'm pretty sure of my own faith and tradition I've been to the services of others, christian and others but I've been to prayer meetings and services of baptists and presbytarians, of evangelicals too, what about them is it that makes you want to puke? Drama and confessionals?

    I dont like the neurotic guilt of many religious, the RCC does that one well, I'm more tolerant of the individuals themselves now but it used to bug me how often I saw it coupled with confused traditionalism or conservatism.

    I think everyone has something in their own faith that they dislike.

  7. #167
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I could believe it, while I'm pretty sure of my own faith and tradition I've been to the services of others, christian and others but I've been to prayer meetings and services of baptists and presbytarians, of evangelicals too, what about them is it that makes you want to puke? Drama and confessionals?

    I dont like the neurotic guilt of many religious, the RCC does that one well, I'm more tolerant of the individuals themselves now but it used to bug me how often I saw it coupled with confused traditionalism or conservatism.

    I think everyone has something in their own faith that they dislike.
    It's more like a self-righteous motivational conference centered on ego than anything else.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    It's more like a self-righteous motivational conference centered on ego than anything else.
    Oh yes, I think I know what you mean, yes, this can be more unique to some sorts of evangelism, ego stroking that they're the possessors of real truth and the keys to heaven.

    I presume nothing about God, I'm always wary of any time this appears to happen and it does happen in all walks of life and faith.

  9. #169
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Oh yes, I think I know what you mean, yes, this can be more unique to some sorts of evangelism, ego stroking that they're the possessors of real truth and the keys to heaven.

    I presume nothing about God, I'm always wary of any time this appears to happen and it does happen in all walks of life and faith.
    Yeah. I think it's wiser not to presume. I imagine it does happen in all walks of life and faith. I just seem to have a hard time avoiding it in mine.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Oh yes, I think I know what you mean, yes, this can be more unique to some sorts of evangelism, ego stroking that they're the possessors of real truth and the keys to heaven.

    I presume nothing about God, I'm always wary of any time this appears to happen and it does happen in all walks of life and faith.
    Other than that it exists, you mean? That's the biggest presumption of all.

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