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  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    My experience is fairly narrow, but I think it's safe to say that there are chunks of Protestantism, especially Evangelicalism, that strongly push the idea that each of us is God's own special little snowflake.

    Edit: I don't know how or if it relates to Individualism, etc. That's just what I've seen the last thirty years give or take.
    A lot of the modern day religious believers, protestant or catholic are going to be influenced by their cultural mileu as much as the next person, although I do know that the principle of individual conscience was much more important in Luther's ideas about salvation in his break with the RCC, at least initially, than anything else.

  2. #152
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    No, what you were taught is exactly the opposite of what they believed. They believed they were chosen (some, like Richard Baxter, were arminian, but for this analysis that doesn't matter). They didn't believe God rewarded success. They believe God valued virtue regardless of the result. So they were able to continue to work hard and be content because they believed God loved them despite the result of their toil.

    Moreover, they were covenantalists, which meant they believed in child baptism. That is they didn't think baptism was a matter of individual choice to worship God, but rather a matter of being born into the church as a community.

    The individualism comes more from enlightenment thinking and more baptist belief in emphasizing individual choice.


    Edit: I will grant that the puritans were more individualistic than Catholics and so maybe represented a step towards more individualism, but I wouldn't call them the source.
    Perhaps it was the other way around: If someone is successful, it shows god's (special) favor. Since, either way, they are thus equivalent to anyone who cannot see god's will, it is good to be successful.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You're not giving me a reason why I should defend my beliefs with you. You don't believe in shoulds. Being reasonable or not being stupid is just a preference for you. There's nothing wrong with being stupid or unreasonable to you.

    I'm more than happy to defend my beliefs against people who have a reason to believe that beliefs should be in line with the truth.
    OK give an explanation of your beliefs to @Typhon then.

    This is what I have to put up with!

  4. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Edit: I will grant that the puritans were more individualistic than Catholics and so maybe represented a step towards more individualism, but I wouldn't call them the source.
    No I wouldnt either but they deserve to be considered within a category of important precursors but they'd not recognise post-enlightenment individualism that's for sure, definitely not the puritans, I'd suspect they'd find it all vanity and nonsense.

  5. #155
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    What did it look like?
    A very bright glow and I saw a silhouette of a female dressed in robe type clothing.

  6. #156
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    So that had me wondering two things, first of all, do you believe in angels? Second, is that the most implausible thing about Christianity or religion and if it isnt what is in your opinion?
    Hm. I can't really say either way. I suppose I have felt a bit of something like a guardian presence in my life at times.

    Not the most implausible, a lot of things about Christianity are implausible.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  7. #157
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    OK give an explanation of your beliefs to @Typhon then.

    This is what I have to put up with!
    ?

  8. #158
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    A very bright glow and I saw a silhouette of a female dressed in robe type clothing.
    When and where did you see this?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    ?
    Apparently I'm not qualified to hear them.

  10. #160
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Perhaps it was the other way around: If someone is successful, it shows god's (special) favor. Since, either way, they are thus equivalent to anyone who cannot see god's will, it is good to be successful.
    Except it's not, because they had a robust view of calling, vocation, and God's sovereignty.

    "If we look externally, there is a difference between washing dishes and preaching the Word of God, but as touching pleasing God, none at all" -William Tyndale

    " Let the people of God comfort themselves in all cases by this doctrine of the divine decrees[God's Master plan]; and, amidst whatever befalls them, rest quietly and submissively in the bosom of God, considering that whatever comes or can come to pass, proceeds from the decree of their gracious friend and reconciled Father, who knows what is best for them, and will make all things work together for their good. O what a sweet and pleasant life would you have under the heaviest pressures of affliction, and what heavenly serenity and tranquillity of mind would you enjoy, would you cheerfully acquiesce in the good will and pleasure of God, and embrace every dispensation, how no matter how sharp it may be, because it is determined and appointed for you by the eternal counsel of his will!" - Thomas Boston

    "The action of a shepherd keeping sheep is as good a work before God as a minister in preaching" -William Perkins

    Heh even found this quote by Baxter who didn't believe in predestination, but individual salvation, yet he still valued the community and it was his value of the community and God that drive his work ethic:
    "The public welfare, or the good of the many is to be valued above our own. Every man, therefore, is bound to do all he can for others, especially for the church and commonwealth" -Richard Baxter
    Take the weakest thing in you
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