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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well, I wouldnt have said that all athiests, or even rationalists, were amoral but since you've categorically stated so who's to argue with that?

    I guess I'm just glad that for the majority of human history morality and belief in God has ruled instead.

    I mean if that wherent so we may not even be having this discussion.
    I never said that a world without Morality was better. I just said that's the world we live in.

    Theists don't get out of the trap either. God is completely irrelevant to Morality.

  2. #112
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    What is Morality in your view then?

    You haven't told me your own thoughts. You can't just believe in something because you dislike the alternative.
    Why are you trying to manipulate me?

    If there is no right or wrong then I can believe whatever I want. Your effort to make me defend my position is just a matter of you trying to impose your will and your desire for what you like on me.

    You have no ground on which to stand that allows you to criticise my beliefs.

    You hit the nail on the head - the reason is because I don't WANT to kill anyone.
    Right now. But, you have no sense of morality so nothing beyond your will is going to stop you from doing anything. This means you're just an animal and can't be expected to behave as a human with a sense of goodness.

    Why would I? Why do you think people who disagree with you are murderers?
    1) I didn't call you a murderer.
    2) There's nothing wrong with being a murderer so I don't know why it would bother you if I called you one.
    3) I'm just saying you don't have a good reason to not be a murderer. That is, the reason you don't want to murder someone is basically the same reason I don't want to have another cup of coffee. I don't want to right now under the circumstances.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #113
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    I never said that a world without Morality was better. I just said that's the world we live in.
    Without morality there is no "better."
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I'm just saying you don't have a good reason to not be a murderer. That is, the reason you don't want to murder someone is basically the same reason I don't want to have another cup of coffee. I don't want to right now under the circumstances.
    Devil's advocate () question:


    If the only thing stopping an irreligious person from murdering someone is that they don't want to under the circumstances, conversely does that mean that the only thing stopping a religious person from murdering someone is fear of punishment by, from the point of view of the irreligious, an invisible sky wizard?

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Why are you trying to manipulate me?

    If there is no right or wrong then I can believe whatever I want. Your effort to make me defend my position is just a matter of you trying to impose your will and your desire for what you like on me.

    You have no ground on which to stand that allows you to criticise my beliefs.



    Right now. But, you have no sense of morality so nothing beyond your will is going to stop you from doing anything. This means you're just an animal and can't be expected to behave as a human with a sense of goodness.



    1) I didn't call you a murderer.
    2) There's nothing wrong with being a murderer so I don't know why it would bother you if I called you one.
    3) I'm just saying you don't have a good reason to not be a murderer. That is, the reason you don't want to murder someone is basically the same reason I don't want to have another cup of coffee. I don't want to right now under the circumstances.
    I cannot criticise your beliefs on ethical standards, but I CAN on the grounds that they are plain stupid. Reason exists. Your complete lack of any argument to defend your position other than "Ooooo look, isn't murder just soo BAD!" is laughable. Murder is neither bad nor good, conceptually. Whether it's logically/emotionally justifiable will depend on the specific situation.

    I still have emotions like everyone else; I just realise they're a sort of illusion. To call me an animal is just uncalled for really, I don't know why you said that. I'm no more or less of an animal than you are.



    I know you told me you weren't a troll, but I really think you are. You're not interested in having an actual reasonable conversation with me, but just to insult me based on my philosophical perspectives. What's that all about?

  6. #116
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I have that on a shirt. But it has text:

    That's great!
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #117
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    Devil's advocate () question:


    If the only thing stopping an irreligious person from murdering someone is that they don't want to under the circumstances, conversely does that mean that the only thing stopping a religious person from murdering someone is fear of punishment by, from the point of view of the irreligious, an invisible sky wizard?

    Worldview plays some role in how society is structured and how individuals act. However, in my view despite what other people might believe I think everyone is a human endowed with a certain sense of right and wrong. So even if you don't have a reason for believing in right and wrong you can't escape your own sense of it. This is why I think En Gallop doesn't want to be thought of as a murderer. It's not just a matter cultural conditioning.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #118
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    I never said that a world without Morality was better. I just said that's the world we live in.

    Theists don't get out of the trap either. God is completely irrelevant to Morality.
    Discussing things with you really, really tires me out, which is a relatively new experience on my part.

    You remind me a lot of Victor.

  9. #119
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    Devil's advocate () question:


    If the only thing stopping an irreligious person from murdering someone is that they don't want to under the circumstances, conversely does that mean that the only thing stopping a religious person from murdering someone is fear of punishment by, from the point of view of the irreligious, an invisible sky wizard?
    To butt in; No. Some people beleive in Good in and of itself. You dont even have to be religious to do so. The person who believes they shouldnt murder because God will punish them is no different than a Nietzsche or a Hobbes who beleives that only power defines morality. Theyre not murdering because they are indeed scared. I base my notion of the Good on the idea that Good can be done for its own sake.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Discussing things with you really, really tires me out, which is a relatively new experience on my part.

    You remind me a lot of Victor.
    All you need to do is tell me why I'm wrong. Shouldn't be so difficult if you're so darn sure.

    Thanks. The most unreasonable person on the forum.

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