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  1. #11
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Plato is actually the "father" of idealism in the western philosophical tradition lol. More idealistic than Hegel. Marx, though, was a materialist yes.
    I didnt know that, I thought his theory of forms was an attempt to try and get to the true essence of things, like how the materialists sought to analyse things. I could be mistaken.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I didnt know that, I thought his theory of forms was an attempt to try and get to the true essence of things, like how the materialists sought to analyse things. I could be mistaken.
    Plato's essences are not to be confused with Aristotle's substances. Yes, they attempt to get to the true essence of things, but the true essence of things is the idea. For instance, the idea of a chair is superior to any specific chair, be it of wood, metal, plastic(nowadays) etc, it is the "first form" of all chairs since all chairs, being what they are, conform to the idea of the chair. This is why Plato said that painting and drawing being "arts of imitation", do not educate, since they bring us further from the idea, contrary to abstract thought, which brings us closer to it. The "supreme" idea, then, was the "good" and it was the highest emanation of all being. This is where the spiritual notion that ethics are in a different sphere than the material comes from; all ethics/morals are an emanation of the idea of good, and belong to the realm of ideas. Plato was more concerned with ethics then with analyses of things for its own sake though.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This interests me a lot, this final line, I knew that about Marx but say more about this final line, I've been trying to read more on phenomenology lately as its one of the big undiscovered countries philosophically which I've less knowledge of.

    I've been reading someone called Husserl, or something like that, and another guy called Mercel Mont Perly or something. They're all continental theoriests arent they? So far it seems overly complex, like a reinventing of the wheel.
    I don't know much about Husserl, but he was one of Martin Heidegger's professors. Heidegger dedicated the original version of "Being and Time" to him. It appears, however, that they had a troubled philosophical relationship.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorenx7 View Post
    I don't know much about Husserl, but he was one of Martin Heidegger's professors. Heidegger dedicated the original version of "Being and Time" to him. It appears, however, that they had a troubled philosophical relationship.
    Was it not something to do with Husserl being a Jew and Heidegger being a Nazi?

  5. #15
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idealistforthefuture View Post
    I have a question to pose to other philosopher INFJ's, as due to out MBTI we are the type most likely to be idealists. And I've noticed that with my own philosophical views. So I'd find it interesting to hear other INFJ's opinions on their favorite philosophers. My own being Plato and Karl Marx and would love to have a discussion on the matters of idealistic philosophers. This is mainly due to the fact anyone else I've talked with about philosophy has had a very different MBTI then myself and while appreciate arguments with them I can also find it a bit irritating for no one to ever be able to see things through the idealist point of view.
    But....if everyone agreed with you, how would you ever learn to respect, or at least become aware of, the other sides of the metaphorical coin? Besides I think it is naive to assume that sharing a type means sharing the same ideals.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Was it not something to do with Husserl being a Jew and Heidegger being a Nazi?
    This is something I kept up with to some extent ten years ago or so. I think that may have very well been an issue. But there seem to be quite a few interpretations of what actually happened. Based on what I read, I always got the impression that Heidegger was ungrateful to Husserl. However, I think it was most likely over genuine philosophical differences. Heidegger seemed to highly value his own interpretation of philosophy regardless of who was involved. I don't particularly like, for instance, the way he first seemed to value Kierkegaard's thought, then pretty much dismissed him. There is also the real issue of how much Heidegger was or was not connected to Nazism. Maybe somebody actually knows, but this doesn't seem to be something which is clear-cut to me. I may have something to learn from his philosophy, but I'm not so sure how great he was as a person. I've read both positive and negative things he did in regard to Nazism. In some cases, he seemed to stand against it and in other cases he didn't. His relationship to Hannah Arendt is also interesting. She did seem to have a positive view of him. However, I've read so many conflicting things about Heidegger, I hardly even know what to believe anymore.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idealistforthefuture View Post
    I can also find it a bit irritating for no one to ever be able to see things through the idealist point of view.
    Too right mate! Idealists are the most dangerous people in the world.

    Plato was anti-democratic, and Marx said whole peoples will need to be destroyed, and they were.

  8. #18
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Too right mate! Idealists are the most dangerous people in the world.

    Plato was anti-democratic, and Marx said whole peoples will need to be destroyed, and they were.
    I think we should have a 'Questions for Victor' I know I would enjoy it.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  9. #19
    window shopper Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Too right mate! Idealists are the most dangerous people in the world.

    Plato was anti-democratic, and Marx said whole peoples will need to be destroyed, and they were.
    Plato was anti-democratic because democracy is indeed dangerous. It is the opposite pendulum swing of tyranny. In Plato's time, and this is still true in Europe today, political regimes oscillate between democracy and tyranny. I think this is harder for Americans to understand, as they've not had this problem. Maybe thats because of America being a representative democracy, rather than a direct one, I dont know. In any case all no great thinker, including the founding fathers of the American revolution, has ever viewed democracy as anything other than mob rule.

    Just food for thought.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorenx7 View Post
    This is something I kept up with to some extent ten years ago or so. I think that may have very well been an issue. But there seem to be quite a few interpretations of what actually happened. Based on what I read, I always got the impression that Heidegger was ungrateful to Husserl. However, I think it was most likely over genuine philosophical differences. Heidegger seemed to highly value his own interpretation of philosophy regardless of who was involved. I don't particularly like, for instance, the way he first seemed to value Kierkegaard's thought, then pretty much dismissed him. There is also the real issue of how much Heidegger was or was not connected to Nazism. Maybe somebody actually knows, but this doesn't seem to be something which is clear-cut to me. I may have something to learn from his philosophy, but I'm not so sure how great he was as a person. I've read both positive and negative things he did in regard to Nazism. In some cases, he seemed to stand against it and in other cases he didn't. His relationship to Hannah Arendt is also interesting. She did seem to have a positive view of him. However, I've read so many conflicting things about Heidegger, I hardly even know what to believe anymore.
    He's one academic whose philosophy I think was shite, I dont dislike him as much as Satre though.

    I think there's more chance that he was sympathetic towards the Nazis than there is that Jung was, although the with the passage of time I think it becomes harder and harder to understand how anyone could have had any view of the Nazis and Hitler as reasonable or sympathetic but at one time a lot of fairly intelligence and smart people did.

    Even during and at the end of the war there were anti-Hitler figures among the Nazis and military who were willing to try to make some peace with the rest of the world which would have left some sort of dictatorship intact and people in the west who thought that would be a good idea having always considered the bolsheviks or Stalin as the bigger problem.

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