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  1. #11
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    I am a agnostic.

  2. #12
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    I think your theory has merit. There's not enough data for a meaningful conclusion, but I made a detailed poll a year ago and the Ps seemed to be distinctly drawn to the n/a option on the atheist/theist question :

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...43-survey.html

    However, there's likely a specific Ne tendency of leaving possibilities open that might be influencing the results, and I don't think there's an equivalent tendency for SPs, so perhaps they should be excluded from the theory (sorry artisans).


    That said, I'm an atheist.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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  3. #13
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    I choose to be agnostic, not because I am undecided of whether I believe in a deity or do not believe in any deity but because the strongest of atheist and the strong of theist make themselves to be believers of their... hmmm base.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I think your theory has merit. There's not enough data for a meaningful conclusion, but I made a detailed poll a year ago and the Ps seemed to be distinctly drawn to the n/a option on the atheist/theist question :

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...43-survey.html

    However, there's likely a specific Ne tendency of leaving possibilities open that might be influencing the results, and I don't think there's an equivalent tendency for SPs, so perhaps they should be excluded from the theory (sorry artisans).


    That said, I'm an atheist.
    Change that question to "Do you think a god/diety(s)/afterlife exists?

    And you'd get a better opinion from me. That answer is I don't know, because I don't have knowledge of whether they exist, even if we expended enough resources to explore the entire universe (or something equally far in the future,) I'd guess there are still questions left unanswered where believing or not believing in them would not make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

    If you give me a question like, "Do you believe or disbelieve in a god/deity(s)/afterlife?"

    The answer is neither, because my answers aren't about belief. It is about whether I/we know these things exist or not. And for that answer, there isn't an answer. I don't believe nor disbelieve. I either know or don't know.
    Last edited by Rail Tracer; 05-06-2013 at 03:51 AM.

  4. #14
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    anecdotally from my life: no - i've known many judges who are agnostic.

    if anything, i think probability theory is almost like a designer drug custom made for INTPs, so many more of them are going to be tea-pot-agnostics or "it's possible but about as probable as the flying spaghetti monster / pink invisible unicorn" variety, which is generally code for "practically atheist but gets lost in semantics".

  5. #15
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    I think it varies greatly. I would say that there might be some slight correlation between being a perceiver and being agnostic; however, it may be related to how Fe is used. I notice that people with higher amounts of Fi tend to be very definitive on what they feel is right, but that's just personal experience.
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    I think it varies greatly. I would say that there might be some slight correlation between being a perceiver and being agnostic; however, it may be related to how Fe is used. I notice that people with higher amounts of Fi tend to be very definitive on what they feel is right, but that's just personal experience.
    i've noticed the opposite - quite a few NFPs who seem to not filter... at all. god, spirits, chakras, atlantis, ancient astronauts, occult... everything that's stimulates our imagination is there to be treated as real - no probability spectrum.

    it's worth mentioning i used to be like that myself as a teen, so this might have more to do with the growth of Ti doing something that Fi doesn't.

  7. #17
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Interesting. Five INFJ agnostics in this thread so far. I tend to think that people who are Ni-doms who also deal in the subjectivity of Fe have an internal lack of certainty, and that many people assume INFJ is going to be overly-certain, but the opposite is true of INFJs who are strongly Ni-dom because that type of processing is always viewing everything from multiple angles, especially because it deals in the multiple perspectives of Fe as well. Many mistypings result.

    This may not apply to other Ni-doms, but I would describe Ni processing as agnostic in most all realms. I construct internal continuums of opposite concepts, each concept existing in its pure, theoretical form at either end of the continuum and conclusions exist as a sliding point along these continuums, so that no conclusion is ever fixed, but always shifting. Most ideas require the use of multiple continuums, each with a sliding data point. When dealing with the largest scale concepts like the nature of reality or the existence of god, it brings into play many of these poles at once, possibly all of them, and so it is most difficult to reach a single conclusion. In this way the concept of god, and any concept is like watching a river or a cloud which continually shifts, and at best reaching approximate conclusions that encompass a range of possible configurations.

    Fi and Ti can be far more conclusive in their internal structures, building large structures with many possibilities, but valuing more certain data points than Ni. Obviously this is all a hypothesis, with many possible degrees of accuracy including the possibility of being completely nuts.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  8. #18
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    anecdotally from my life: no - i've known many judges who are agnostic.

    if anything, i think probability theory is almost like a designer drug custom made for INTPs, so many more of them are going to be tea-pot-agnostics or "it's possible but about as probable as the flying spaghetti monster / pink invisible unicorn" variety, which is generally code for "practically atheist but gets lost in semantics".
    So what is the difference between the pink invisible unicorn and the Christian God? Give me some details. (FYI, people here know that I rip on Christianity from time to time.)

    That is the difference between an atheist and an agnostic.

    God is the creator of things, which we know nothing with certainty of who or what created the universe. Honestly, I don't go by the book on these things. If there is a God, he/she/it honestly would of created everything that we are discovering now, not by a book that says that everything was created in 6 days (or somewhere around there.)

    That pink unicorn thing, well, that's another story.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moniker View Post
    A commonality that I've noticed among my acquaintances who are religious or atheist is that they tend to be Judgers; which I suppose makes sense since the function seems to come to conclusions more readily than Perceiving. With atheism, the belief is that in accordance with our current understanding of science, it is sufficient to conclude that no god/creator exists because if it did, then we would be able to prove it. Likewise, religion provides believers with conclusions and in many cases, discourages asking questions. Faith itself depends on coming to a conclusion about a particular issue.

    Just out of curiosity, are you a judger or perceiver and do you consider yourself an atheist, agnostic or believer in God. I assume somebody will complain about the options being too narrow so feel free to elaborate on your particular beliefs.
    This is interesting, perhaps to me especially at the moment since I am interested in developing perceptiveness and feeling, not just in the MBTI sense because it was not from this source or knowledge of this source that the motivation sprang, but obviously, yes, in the MBTI sense too.

    I do think that judging could have an implication, although it would be possible to judge that strictly speaking there is not sufficiency in either the argument or evidence of either atheism or religion to provide them with credibility and instead agnosticism prevails.

    To be honest from a strictly rational and logic basis agnosticism seems the most valid opinion, during the spiritual crisis which I have experienced before now, it is the philosophical and spiritual perspective that I retreat to, some of my favourite philosophical and psychological perspectives suggest that objectively the better religious sources are objectively agnostic in so far as they deal with the topic of God, afterlife, ultimate reward or punishments in one way or another but quickly proceed on to ethics and how people are to live the best life together. Erich Fromm talks about Maimodies (spelling) the Jewish philosopher's conclusion that God is "incorporeal" as supposedly a drawing of a line beneath the God question as unresolved and unresolveable (although Fromm seems to think it is a disguised affirmation of atheism) and the rest of this writings being about ethics.

    Personally I think that atheism has done real violence and harm, in science and elsewhere, as much as the forces which it legitimately problematises. I recently read Arthur C Clark's profiles in the future and the sort of thinking, really imaginative, which it contains I dont think would be possible to most of the athiests in the same schools of thought as Dawkins, Dennett etc.

    Clarke's idea that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic explains a lot to me, not simply about magic but also about God and religion, from this perspective religion may remain able to ask questions that science can not, certainly not atheistic science, and so science is no longer illuminating and enlightening as its proponents perport or boast. That is the greater part of the reason I am religious, not because of dogmatic assurity and certainty steming from judgementalism, which I think is important and fair in and of itself, but because it's engaged in the proper search for answers.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    So what is the difference between the pink invisible unicorn and the Christian God? Give me some details. (FYI, people here know that I rip on Christianity from time to time.)

    That is the difference between an atheist and an agnostic.

    God is the creator of things, which we know nothing with certainty of who or what created the universe. Honestly, I don't go by the book on these things. If there is a God, he/she/it honestly would of created everything that we are discovering now, not by a book that says that everything was created in 6 days (or somewhere around there.)

    That pink unicorn thing, well, that's another story.
    It is, it is a facetious and dismissive rhetorical tool of atheist argument.

    A theist equivalent would be insisting that disbelief in a deity, afterlife, ultimate consequence etc. results in Austwhitz, Belsen, Gulags, Rwandan genocide, Serbian genocide etc.

    There is not any objective association or bridging between the two things but it is made in order to persuade the impressionable and immature thinker that since they know that the one thing is false or wrong then the other must be too. Schopeuer (spelling) wrote about this in a book instructing people how to argue which collected the chief means of making arguments but it was overall supposed to be an indictment of the level of learning and reasoning in his day, things have gotten worse since then.

    The creator God thing sounds like pantheism or deism, in many ways I wish that Christianity would out grow and dispense with the bible in order to prevent really sloppy criticisms of biblical literalism, which is a comparatively recent and ruinous development within protestantism, detouring people from considering it at all as valid.

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