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"In a certain light, wouldn't nuclear war be exciting?"

In a certain light, wouldn't nuclear war be exciting?


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Thalassa

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Because pretty soon new controversies caused us to forget to delete the rancid fruit of controversies past. That's being rectified as we speak.

Oh I'm not complaining. I was just letting him know I didn't "get away" with anything, in case he linked that to try to get me reported without reporting me himself.
 

En Gallop

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And that's cool. Maybe if someone had said "unboring" twenty pages ago, I would have gotten it a lot sooner.




YES...and that's why I keep saying it's Fi, and ENFPs like [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] said she doesn't really feel excited about things she finds unpleasant to think about...Fi tends to feel very strongly about things.

So a lot of people have said "don't feel strongly ethically about this" but if you're an Fi type, and take nuclear war seriously (ofc some people don't) then you're going to have a hard time putting it into perspective unless you calm down and use other functions.

Fi types tend to lose it about different things, though; though you'll see some similarities of them largely not caring for human suffering or ugliness, they all have different ideas of precisely what that means, and which field they'll "specialize."

Yes, that's apt, just like INTPs, Ti types, might academically specialize in a certain subject, I think Fi types "specialize" in a certain area, so to speak, they have stronger ethics about certain topics than others, and then on the rest they can be more like live and let live.

That's an interesting way of thinking about Fi. It's something I've kind of wondered about before. So what creates the stronger feelings for certain subjects - a person's life experiences? As an INTP I don't really work that way, what with Fe and all. :)

(I was going to send this in a PM, but it won't let me...)
 

Nicodemus

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Well, war (including nuclear war) is typically "bad" because of the casualties and destruction so if someone derived fun from the situation, I would question their morals. How could one see things as "fun" when people and the world around them are being destroyed? There would a contradiction in how one experiences it while others suffer.
Ignoring for the moment that moral judgment is relative to moral standards, rendering all such judgments ultimately subjective, I wonder how you can question my morals knowing only that I derive fun from some aspects of the situation and not, as a simplistic view might suggest, the situation in all its components, especially since you do not know what kind of scenario of nuclear war I am imagining and thus what kind of aspects I can shine a light on. I could be excited to see some destruction, of ugly buildings perhaps, some casualties, perhaps the inmates of a high-security prison for rapists, while deploring most of the other casualties and destruction. I could also be excited to see the dawn of a new era for the world, finally freed from human mistreatment.

So I must ask: Is there necessarily something questionable about my morals if, in a certain light, I can find the prospect of nuclear war exciting?
 

SolitaryWalker

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If you'd pushed me more? So you mean if you intentionally trolled me?

Why couldn't I get you banned for trolling then?

I think this forum is kind of absurd, even [MENTION=14179]SolitaryWalker[/MENTION] admitted he had gotten F types infracted by trolling them, because basically as an INTP he can keep his cool longer (though he did lose it once on me) ...but he was being immature, I told him about his being immature toward trolling those people here, and later he agreed.

"If I don't push them, someone else will" isn't an excuse to troll people, just like it's not an excuse to physically push people.

I actually am listening to people, you weren't really listening to me in many regards, and you still aren't.

So, why are you falling for the oldest trick in the book? If you understand not only his overarching objective, but also the specific tactics he will employ to achieve it, why would you allow him to force you exactly into the position where he wants you to be?

If you have already recognized Rasofy as your adversary, do you not have a modicum of strategic incentive to stop him from reaching his objective?
 

unnamed

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Half the stuff that goes on here would never go on, on INTJforum, for example.

If you really loved rules, you'd hang out on INTJforum. They know rules.
You make me remind my experience on there,there is no rules.
iyEbW.png


:(
 

SolitaryWalker

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Trolling is against the rules, so no you don't take them seriously. The people who take them the most seriously are the people who are the most polite and pleasant and never troll. I can't say I've always been polite and pleasant, and many people who have never even gotten infracted can't say they've never trolled.

It's not funny, it's not cute, it's a loop-hole in the system probably left over from Typology Central being connected to INTPcentral.

Half the stuff that goes on here would never go on, on INTJforum, for example.

If you really loved rules, you'd hang out on INTJforum. They know rules.




Yes, well thanks for your concern. And your acknowledgement that the forum is indeed set up in a way so that emotional people get in trouble more easily, even if there are other people around them with even more insidious or amoral agendas.




I'm not fighting with you, I was trying to get you to see the reality of nuclear war. You're the one who told me to get some Ne, and to tone down the Fi, so you kind of started it.


You've got to step aside and just take it easy, they're just baiting you now.
 

Coriolis

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It does if attached to Te.

But it's interesting how the if-then comes to be. Or more exactly, how the person sees there is a movement from the if condition to the then result. How does one get to imagine that one set of images plus an if condition gives rise to some other set of images? A shitload of coherence testing that looks a hell of a lot like "WHAT IF".

Actual conscious operation of Ni has a lot more heuristic devices than what if.
What you are calling coherence testing seems to happen automatically, without conscious operation. I generally become aware first of the result. If I want more insight into the process, I have to look deliberately, and what I find is usually a tangled mess, until the end where it is untangled and coherent.

It is worth pointing out, too, that Ni cannot detach from Te/Fe in actual usage.

Yes, it's called personal preference. It's called Fi. Why don't you tell Kalach that instead, since you agree with me and apparently don't realize it?
Our agreement on this does not mean we see things (or even this thing) the same way.

The thing is, Ni can presume to think it sees ALL paths ...
This sounds more like Ne. Ni sees one path, and views it as the correct one.

Or simply what so many other people have suggested, that some of us equate the word "exciting" with something fun or positive, so thinking nuclear war gives someone a hard on is a bit unsettling.
And that's cool. Maybe if someone had said "unboring" twenty pages ago, I would have gotten it a lot sooner.
So our answer to the OP is ultimately based on our definition of excitement.

I'm not fighting with you, I was trying to get you to see the reality of nuclear war. You're the one who told me to get some Ne, and to tone down the Fi, so you kind of started it.
This thread has never been about the reality of nuclear war, just the fantasy of it.
 

En Gallop

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YES...and that's why I keep saying it's Fi, and ENFPs like [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] said she doesn't really feel excited about things she finds unpleasant to think about...Fi tends to feel very strongly about things.

So a lot of people have said "don't feel strongly ethically about this" but if you're an Fi type, and take nuclear war seriously (ofc some people don't) then you're going to have a hard time putting it into perspective unless you calm down and use other functions.

Fi types tend to lose it about different things, though; though you'll see some similarities of them largely not caring for human suffering or ugliness, they all have different ideas of precisely what that means, and which field they'll "specialize."

Yes, that's apt, just like INTPs, Ti types, might academically specialize in a certain subject, I think Fi types "specialize" in a certain area, so to speak, they have stronger ethics about certain topics than others, and then on the rest they can be more like live and let live.

I think the biggest thing I don't understand about the Fi thing is this: If you say you don't like something, and another person says they do, and both people are speaking honestly and it's just as important to both of them, then how can you still believe so strongly in your own personal Fi judgement when it's effectively been canceled out by another person's emotional opinion? Are yours more true than anyone else's? :) Sorry, the thought's just been bugging me a little because I can't figure it out lol!
 
S

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I think the biggest thing I don't understand about the Fi thing is this: If you say you don't like something, and another person says they do, and both people are speaking honestly and it's just as important to both of them, then how can you still believe so strongly in your own personal Fi judgement when it's effectively been canceled out by another person's emotional opinion? Are yours more true than anyone else's? :) Sorry, the thought's just been bugging me a little because I can't figure it out lol!

i think i can answer that (grew up with Fi users)...
in a sentiment that would seem so obvious to them that i can trust neither you or i or quite possibly any NT will ever be able to fully grok.

 

Galena

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So, why are you falling for the oldest trick in the book? If you understand not only his overarching objective, but also the specific tactics he will employ to achieve it, why would you allow him to force you exactly into the position where he wants you to be?

If you have already recognized Rasofy as your adversary, do you not have a modicum of strategic incentive to stop him from reaching his objective?
But would going around expressing oneself with care and strategy to counteract each person's tricks while your trolls get away with being their troll selves be empowering from every functional point of view?
 

En Gallop

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i think i can answer that (grew up with Fi users)...
in a sentiment that would seem so obvious to them that i can trust neither you or i or quite possibly any NT will ever be able to fully grok.

"its true for me"

LOL nothing annoys me more than statements like that! :D
 

En Gallop

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because there's no way to go with it, it essentially saying "i belong to my own reality and what you think ain't part of it".

Exactly, it's very strange. :)

But surely not all Fi users are like that? I can't believe many people would be able to think in such an unreasonable way, regardless of their MBTI type.
 

Faceless Beauty

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I think the biggest thing I don't understand about the Fi thing is this: If you say you don't like something, and another person says they do, and both people are speaking honestly and it's just as important to both of them, then how can you still believe so strongly in your own personal Fi judgement when it's effectively been canceled out by another person's emotional opinion? Are yours more true than anyone else's? :) Sorry, the thought's just been bugging me a little because I can't figure it out lol!

Well, Fe seems to like assuming that other people's emotional opinions are equally valid, which is probably your issue with how Fi operates to begin with. How can you determine which emotional opinions carry more weight when there is no real standard for determining that? Just because something is important to one person, does not mean that is important to someone else. Also, belief doesn't have to have basis in some kind of external truth that is tangible to others. People have a hard time understanding that. As for Fi, it's having personal value judgments based on your perceptions of certain things. It is not concerned with true/false as much as right and wrong and what responses the object elicits in the subject.
 
S

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Exactly, it's very strange. :)

But surely not all Fi users are like that? I can't believe many people would be able to think in such an unreasonable way, regardless of their MBTI type.

no, not all Fi users are like that... not all FPs, and not all people who are like that are Fi doms. it's just that this specific philosophical meme seems to appeal more to many of them - it's a useful dealing mechanism for emotional dissonance, and they suffer less cognitive dissonance as a result of embracing it.
 
S

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Well, Fe seems to like assuming that other people's emotional opinions are equally valid, which is probably your issue with how Fi operates to begin with. How can you determine which emotional opinions carry more weight when there is no real standard for determining that? Just because something is important to one person, does not mean that is important to someone else. Also, belief doesn't have to have basis in some kind of external truth that is tangible to others. People have a hard time understanding that. As for Fi, it's having personal value judgments based on your perceptions of certain things. It is not concerned with true/false as much as right and wrong and what responses the object elicits in the subject.

screw the question of validity: we live in a world involving around 7 billion skulls whose content is capable of human emotions, what's in there is in there - a real and existing pattern of matter and energy, expressing themselves in various ways that our minds are adapted to picking up and recognizing while associating with the most similar pattern of matter and energy within ourselves. its all there and it exists.
 

Faceless Beauty

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screw the question of validity: we live in a world involving around 7 billion skulls whose content is capable of human emotions, what's in there is in there - a real and existing pattern of matter and energy, expressing themselves in various ways that our minds are adapted to picking up and recognizing while associating with the most similar pattern of matter and energy within ourselves. its all there and it exists.

But of course. However, my point was that to call emotions of two different people equally valid and thus cancelling each other out doesn't seem justified. :newwink:
 
S

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But of course. However, my point was that to call emotions of two different people equally valid and thus cancelling each other out doesn't seem justified. :newwink:

oh, missed that part. but it does sort of works for Fe - not because they cancel each other out in terms of validity, but because in a conflict, subconsciously or consciously, Fe is essentially trying to work the social map and seek allies. so in that sense, two people expressing conflicting opinions does increase the options.

p.s.
looking back at what [MENTION=18250]En Gallop[/MENTION] wrote - i think she meant "if two Fi users can come up with opposing opinions, then how can you be sure your Fi knows right?"... it's not proposing that they cancel each other out necessarily, it's that it should insert a doubt in the Fi user belief that their Fi is right.
 

Kalach

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What you are calling coherence testing seems to happen automatically, without conscious operation. I generally become aware first of the result. If I want more insight into the process, I have to look deliberately, and what I find is usually a tangled mess, until the end where it is untangled and coherent.

Don't tell her I said so, but Marm's right about "What if" being more of an Ne thing. As a thought process it builds on conditions, so it's more reasonably associated with extroverted processes. But...

There's some process by which stuff of the world is drawn away from the world. Elements of suggestions are taken away and toyed with and become more real by their connections to other schemes of thought than by their original connection to mud and blood and whatever concrete device spawned the suggestion. The tangled noodling doesn't strike me as incoherent so much as it is large. In that case there are two notions of coherence to consider. The more standard notion is of logical coherence, and seems to me to refer to moving imagery back toward the outside. The outside contains, or is taken to contain, the relatively more fixed standards of measure. The other notion of coherence is--well, I probably should have called it non-contradiction. I think for introverted perception the one standard we use for determining interest in options is to what degree and at what level, the new thought contradicts other images. There's a wide variety of levels of contradiction that make images more interesting, and it may be only fundamental contradiction that stops something being thought. But, yeah, I might be using "contradiction" in the wrong way here. It's not logical contradiction, but a state of disagreement between image content.

That's introverted perception, I think. A process of creating depth of image by creating new images out of contrasts with old. So... "coherence testing", more or less.





"In a certain light, wouldn't universal peace and common prosperity be dull?"
 

Thalassa

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I think the biggest thing I don't understand about the Fi thing is this: If you say you don't like something, and another person says they do, and both people are speaking honestly and it's just as important to both of them, then how can you still believe so strongly in your own personal Fi judgement when it's effectively been canceled out by another person's emotional opinion? Are yours more true than anyone else's? :) Sorry, the thought's just been bugging me a little because I can't figure it out lol!

Fi tends to kind of believe that what's true for you is fine if its different from me as long as it doesn't hurt anybody, in the Fi user's estimation. I think if the Fi type sees real peril, then they'll say something, and if not, they won't.

Being on the forum is a way for me to refine my ethics. Contrary to popular belief, I don't go around screaming in anyone's face, nor do I go around correcting other people's morals. My ESFJ friend did that. She would tell other people how to feel.

Me, I don't do that. I passed myself off for YEARS living with my Argentine friends as the sweetest, nicest, quietest person. When they finally saw me get upset about something, it was impressive, like whoa what the fuck is she possessed. Because that's usually how chill I outwardly am, as long as people stay out of my space.

I also recently rented from some Russians who lived in the same building as me, as they always thought of me as so nice and sweet, and other people actually had problems with them. I have no idea why.

So the thing about Fi is that it's actually pretty hidden the vast majority of the time IRL. I think writing is a different matter entirely, which is probably why INFPs are stereotyped as authors/writers and ISFP as artists or song-writers. It all comes out then. Like screw you guys, I'm going home.

But yes I do feel more strongly about some of my ethics than others. Of course. And if anyone messes with me or mine, they are asking for it.
 
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