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View Poll Results: In a certain light, wouldn't nuclear war be exciting?

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  • Yes

    21 52.50%
  • No

    19 47.50%
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  1. #191
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    I think blind tolerance is lazy morality. I don't tolerate something carte blanche if it's something I feel strongly about; IRL, this typically isn't much, IRL people tend to think of me as not especially imposing and frankly disinterested in what they are doing; as a teenager I gave into this kind of warped societal blind tolerance, because I wanted peace and love for all of mankind.

    As I grew into an adult, I realized that peace and love for all mankind cannot be sustained by certain moral world views, that over-permissiveness is destructive, and that it's actually reached a point where people will tolerate just about anything, but then they often want to complain about the consequences of not having foresight.

    Ni is foresight just as much as anything else; I developed it later in life, as a young pup I was much more of a easy target, gaining experience, tolerating the intolerable because I hated to judge people without first understanding them.

    But then I learned that doing that is kind of stupid and can lead to horrible consequences; it's probably not a good idea to let heroin addicts ride in your car, and no that violently angry bf of yours is never going to change.

    I used to always pity the hated.

    The difference between then and now is adulthood, and a complete understanding of how morally wrong it is to allow all things, because it ironically impedes freedom, not gives it.

    There has to be a balance.

    Nico, you're a nihilist. We're never going to agree. You philosophically represent everything I eschew, and vice versa, and because we're both Fi types, we're never going to smile and wave at each other and pretend it's okay.

  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The conclusion to be drawn from these two statements is all I would really ask for (although I know that saying this will make it all the harder for you to do it): Tolerance towards differing perspectives and moral feelings.

    I think very few have ever tried to invalidate your feelings. It is only when you try to do it to others that the usual fights ensue.

    Please, try to take this at face value. Think of it as coming from someone else if that makes difference.
    Oh and by the way, I asked you to no longer quote me, and you just blatantly disregarded my request. You completely disrespect me constantly, bringing me up or following me around on the forum when I'm not even talking to you, and now quoting me after I asked you not to.

    So you're a fine one to preach about tolerance, or to insist no one invalidates my feelings; you do it constantly, and when I got banned, it was partly because people thought it was hilarious to talk about killing and/or abandoning me.

    Oh no, that's not invalidating my feelings at all, but you're still doing it NOW.

    You have an authoritarian attitude toward me, because you can't stand what I represent. Even when I "live and let live" and leave @Nicodemus alone, you can't wait to invade MY space.

    It's kind of repulsive, your hypocrisy.

  3. #193
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I can align with that. Yet is it not appropriate to have some parameters we agree on? It's not like a nuclear detonation is going to contain skittles or something. We can agree that devastation is the most probable outcome, no? And base our opinion of that which we see as the most probable? So, why is someone who comes in and says, "I can't see past the horror of this to even contemplate alternate outcomes" so stifling?
    because no, agreeing that devastation is the most probable outcome is not the way forward. Some such agreement is the assertion of what image is most fundamentally relevant to the discussion. Yet that image is concrete, factual, and irrelevant, except to those who wish to work the discussion that way.

    Basically you're saying our own personal wiring and context changes how we view the world, even down to the interpretation of any given question. But you're talking to the most subjective of the subjective types here; to me (Fi dom) such a thing is a given. Do you think that point is not obvious to all?
    No, I don't think it's obvious. If it were, you'd know to say more than we're all subjective. The nature of the subjectivity differs from type to type, and its prominence in conscious priorities differs too. Which is to say, in the sense you appear to mean it, we are NOT all subjective. And in fact, there is no most subjective of all types.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #194
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    Um Fi is subjective subjectivity.

    You've just made up your own theory and are pushing it on people Kalach.

    At least that's what it's starting to look like.

  5. #195
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Except you're missing the point that Fi comes into play just as much as Si or Ni.
    You remember the part where I asked what Fi works with? Fi doesn't come into play "just as much" as perception. It's not some independent entity working alongside some disliked process. The perceptions you allow yourself dictate what you have available to judge. If concrete imagery is where Fi works in one type, then concrete imagery is king. If some Ni person comes along saying concrete imagery is the smaller part of what's interesting here, they're not somehow failing to be human and have values. They're just looking at a part of the story that you're not.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  6. #196
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    A minute ago, I was about to post something nice, share with you a story about my sister to show you where I am coming from, but you just cannot help it... So, instead of establishing understanding, I am back to defending myself against your bullshit claims. I even thanked you for your non-toxic post!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Oh and by the way, I asked you to no longer quote me, and you just blatantly disregarded my request. You completely disrespect me constantly, bringing me up or following me around on the forum when I'm not even talking to you, and now quoting me after I asked you not to.
    I am not following you around. You are everywhere. When you say something objectionable, I react. I would refrain from that (thereby honoring your request) if you refrained from saying outrageous things. I bring you up in other contexts sometimes to draw attention to the contradictions in your line of reasoning, if we want to call it that, because I think people should know when there is a poisonous well in the garden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    So you're a fine one to preach about tolerance, or to insist no one invalidates my feelings; you do it constantly, and when I got banned, it was partly because people thought it was hilarious to talk about killing and/or abandoning me.
    That is not what I mean by invalidating feelings. What I mean is that no one says that you are wrong to feel as you feel. But sometimes it needs to be pointed out that your reaction is unproportional to its cause, usually because you take it much more personal than it was intended or simply completely the wrong way. Such was the case with the car race and your abandonment in the woods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Oh no, that's not invalidating my feelings at all, but you're still doing it NOW.
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    You have an authoritarian attitude toward me, because you can't stand what I represent. Even when I "live and let live" and leave @Nicodemus alone, you can't wait to invade MY space.
    Perhaps it is because my sister is just like you, only with open ears. You have no space here (except your blog, which I have not posted in since you attacked Moniker).

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    It's kind of repulsive, your hypocrisy.
    See, this is the kind of thing I object to. First, there is no hypocrisy. Second, what is this supposed to mean? "You disgust me", probably. But what should I do about it? Jump off a cliff? Have brain surgery? Pretend you are right when I know you are wrong?

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    You remember the part where I asked what Fi works with? Fi doesn't come into play "just as much" as perception. It's not some independent entity working alongside some disliked process. The perceptions you allow yourself dictate what you have available to judge. If concrete imagery is where Fi works in one type, then concrete imagery is king. If some Ni person comes along saying concrete imagery is the smaller part of what's interesting here, they're not somehow failing to be human and have values. They're just looking at a part of the story that you're not.
    I already acknowledged that Se rejects conjecture for conjecture's sake. I think I've attempted as much as I can, without compromising my actual vales, to admit why I see things as I do; I was trying to be fair and good-humored about the whole thing.

    But that's not enough for you people is it? Unless I sacrifice my values, you'll never be content.

    And guess what? Without sufficient evidence that I am wrong (which I am not, the only thing that even sounded remotely plausible to me was @Ivy's suggestion about Ann Frank, and I thought no, even still, we've already had Japanese survivors of nuclear bombs to teach us lessons, and the Chernobyl victims, it's not like it needs to keep happening to prove us wrong, unless we're like savages, stuck in perpetual infancy because of being unable to remember the past), ain't gonna happen.

    My values have shifted over the course of my lifetime. But there must be sufficient evidence for this to happen, and I've already explained, I just don't see the justification for any of this except conjecture for conjecture's sake.

    And I'm relieved that's all that's going on, which is why I'm able to be less emotional about it now than a couple of days ago, but I still am not gonna like it.

    You can't make me.

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Um Fi is subjective subjectivity.
    Is blue blue bluer than another blue or is it still just blue? "Subjective subjectivity" is a nifty phrase to refer to cognition that discards environmental influence (subjectivity in the Jungian technical sense) and focuses on the personal (subjectivity in the conventional sense). It is as such no more or less removed form the environment than any other introverted concern, and it's no more removed from the impersonal than any other personal concern.

    You've just made up your own theory and are pushing it on people Kalach.
    Well spotted. Did I give it away when I said it was a theory I made up and wished people would get congruent with?

    Are you under the impression that made up theories have less substance than--well, less substance than what? Should I learn from your approach here that you think theories are not substantial? So I should know now what level of respect you intend your own theories should have?

    Gifts don't differ any more, do they.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    A minute ago, I was about to post something nice, share with you a story about my sister to show you where I am coming from, but you just cannot help it... So, instead of establishing understanding, I am back to defending myself against your bullshit claims. I even thanked you for your non-toxic post!


    I am not following you around. You are everywhere. When you say something objectionable, I react. I would refrain from that (thereby honoring your request) if you refrained from saying outrageous things. I bring you up in other contexts sometimes to draw attention to the contradictions in your line of reasoning, if we want to call it that, because I think people should know when there is a poisonous well in the garden.


    That is not what I mean by invalidating feelings. What I mean is that no one says that you are wrong to feel as you feel. But sometimes it needs to be pointed out that your reaction is unproportional to its cause, usually because you take it much more personal than it was intended or simply completely the wrong way. Such was the case with the car race and your abandonment in the woods.


    No.


    Perhaps it is because my sister is just like you, only with open ears. You have no space here (except your blog, which I have not posted in since you attacked Moniker).


    See, this is the kind of thing I object to. First, there is no hypocrisy. Second, what is this supposed to mean? "You disgust me", probably. But what should I do about it? Jump off a cliff? Have brain surgery? Pretend you are right when I know you are wrong?
    Nico I never pursue you personally. I have you on ignore. You can't seem to ignore me, that's not my problem, it's yours, and I don't care how much you project your own issues, the sad truth is that you won't leave me the fuck alone.

    I only react to you when you talk directly to me. You're even trying to blame me for you choosing to not say something nice. You take no moral responsibility. You don't see yourself clearly, but maybe that's due to only having tertiary Fi and insisting so much on living in your Ni.

    No, you don't need to point out things to me, unless I don't need to point out things to other people.

    That's why I say your hypocrisy is repulsive.

    I just point out things collectively. I don't follow individuals around like you, per their request to leave them alone, unless it's a boy I was involved with in some way, and since you're gay, I know you're not in unrequited love with me, so this following around thing you do to me is moral.

    You feel a duty to morally correct me, specifically, which is weird, because I have absolved all moral responsibility to you, because I see you effectively as a "lost cause," a nihilist, so by respecting your nihilism, I don't go around correcting you.

    But you can't seem to stay away from me. And I do have open ears...for people who respect me or say something convincing.

    Your sister has more open ears TO YOU, because she's your sister, probably.

    I listen to my sisters too.

    Now go away. You keep following me around and quoting me, I'll report you. Period.

  10. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I already acknowledged that Se rejects conjecture for conjecture's sake. I think I've attempted as much as I can, without compromising my actual vales, to admit why I see things as I do; I was trying to be fair and good-humored about the whole thing.

    But that's not enough for you people is it? Unless I sacrifice my values, you'll never be content.
    Marm, that's funny. You sound like me. All up in the internet requiring that other people accept you believe something of substance. They're supposed to take action aren't they. They're supposed to know that since you believe it, it's amounts to a discovery of truths independent of you that can be shared.

    This is (part of) why I tend to focus on differences of perception and judgment. Those preferences for other ways of thinking, doing and seeing not infrequently put a stop to the sharing of these discovered truths that were independent of you. This question of how to make your own subjectively subjective subjectivities into real purpose and plan, and how it gets thwarted by other people so lets shout some more and make it louder....

    Welcome to the club.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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