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Thread: original sin

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    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Default original sin

    I thought the original sin was eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or power, or something like that. But a Catholic priest at a talk the other night said the original sin was being conceived by a non-virgin birth, i.e. being produced because your parents had sex. So sex is the original sin. But Eve was created so Adam wouldn't be lonely, and sex is supposed to produce (according to religion, including what the Catholic priest said) a spiritual union of souls. So sex makes you less lonely. So Eve could have been created to have sex with Adam and produce loving harmonious happiness and all that. But sex is a sin. Huh? Can we extrapolate/deduce by combining the two that if knowledge of good and evil and all other god-like powers and sex are both the original sin, then they might be the same thing, and sex will lead to god-like knowledge of good and evil, and everything else? Can we know the mysteries of the universe through sex, and that's what monotheism thinks is a sin, because then we would be like God and have no need for monotheistic religion anymore?


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    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think there is a different idea between Catholic and Protestant then of what original sin is.

    I believe it generally refers to Adam and Even believing the serpent that through eating the fruit they could be like God. Through that action of defiance against God, they brought sin into the world and every child born after that was born with a sinful nature (ie didn't need to be induced or taught how to sin). Blood was the only thing that could atone for sin, and so after that point, animal sacrifices were required, so that people realized how serious sin was. That was why Jesus' death was such a momentous event - while being fully human and fully God, he was sinless and so could atone for the sin of the whole world once and for all to create a bridge between God and humans.

    Catholicism holds the Bible and church dogma as equal authorities. Therefore, throughout the years as Pope's have added new doctrine, it has been adopted as being equally authoritative. The beliefs surrounding Mary's perpetual virginity etc, priestly celibacy and so on have been added throughout the centuries.

    In contrast, the Bible indicates that Mary and Joseph did not engage in sex until after Jesus was born, but then went on to have a family together. The book Song of Solomon indicates that sex is a good thing. The Bible says nothing about sex in and of itself being sinful.

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    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think there is a different idea between Catholic and Protestant then of what original sin is.

    I believe it generally refers to Adam and Even believing the serpent that through eating the fruit they could be like God. Through that action of defiance against God, they brought sin into the world and every child born after that was born with a sinful nature (ie didn't need to be induced or taught how to sin). Blood was the only thing that could atone for sin, and so after that point, animal sacrifices were required, so that people realized how serious sin was. That was why Jesus' death was such a momentous event - while being fully human and fully God, he was sinless and so could atone for the sin of the whole world once and for all to create a bridge between God and humans.
    Right. I believe it was Augustine who linked original sin with sex, such that he believed original sin to be transmitted sexually down through the generations, providing a kind of explanation for people's inability to live a sinless life on their own, despited humans being created good initially. Since our sexual natures are corrupted, then we conceive children while pursuing our lustful desires, thereby created offspring whose natures are equally corrupted. (Such a cheery view... Augustine wasn't exactly a sex positive kind of guy.)

    Such a linking led to doctrine of immaculate conception, which refers to Mary's conception, not Jesus's.

    I think that, generally speaking, the conception of original sin is not vastly different among most protestants (although not necessary believed to be a sexually transmitted disease), but most do not believe in the immaculate conception (of Mary), nor do most believe that Mary was sinless. Of course, doctrine varies quite a bit amongst protestants.

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    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    This is one reason I'm not a Christian- Occam's razor. It's too confusing.

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    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    That priests assertions AREN'T supported by the bible. It's just his interpretation.

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    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    This is one reason I'm not a Christian- Occam's razor. It's too confusing.
    Funny you say that because William of Ockham was a Franciscan Friar.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    ... which is entirely irrelevant.

    The idea itself is an idea, not "belonging" to any particular belief system. I'm sure Ockham had personal exceptions to his rule, or assumptions he personally made; everyone else who thinks of the same idea would also apply it in ways that make sense to him or her. The initial assumptions determine application. It's common in science for someone to come up with an idea, but they can only apply it in certain ways or "take it so far" because of their own particular worldview or mindset; and then someone later picks up with the idea and explores it further or at least applies it in directions based on their own assumptions.

    EDIT: In general, @fidelia and @Seymour do a good job of covering the typical thoughts underlying Protestantism and Cathlicism.

    And of course if you believe the Eden story was more an analogy or attempt to explain why certain things were the way they are, in order to codify the identity of the tribe, then you would look at it even more differently and not really need to smooth out the inconsistencies/ambiguities in the perspectives.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    ... which is entirely irrelevant.

    The idea itself is an idea, not "belonging" to any particular belief system. I'm sure Ockham had personal exceptions to his rule, or assumptions he personally made; everyone else who thinks of the same idea would also apply it in ways that make sense to him or her. The initial assumptions determine application. It's common in science for someone to come up with an idea, but they can only apply it in certain ways or "take it so far" because of their own particular worldview or mindset; and then someone later picks up with the idea and explores it further or at least applies it in directions based on their own assumptions.
    It's not irrelevant. It's just a more concise way of getting across what you just said.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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    I think we should sin as much as possible because then we can defy God and the natural order!

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    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Or, as Romans 6:1 says, "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?"


    (of course, the next verse starts with "By no means." Paul also comes across as a bit of a downer.)

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