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Thread: original sin

  1. #51
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think I've heard or read a theory that original sin is passed down through men because Eve sinned because she was deceived, while Adam was not deceived and chose to sin anyway. That would make original sin transmitted via sex, but not because sex is bad, but because men are bad. I don't personally subscribe to that theory, but I have heard that or something like it somewhere. I have a mind like a steel sieve, so that's all I've got on that theory.
    I think this might have started with Milton’s Paradise Lost (17th century, Milton was Protestant). He fleshed the story in Genesis out with a lot of exposition, giving a whole internal dialogue to what Adam and Eve went through (Satan too, possibly others, can’t remember)- whereas previously it was only a dry external account? Anyway, in PL, Adam claims to know it’s wrong before he takes a bite- but he takes a bite anyway because he loves her, and so supposedly he’s the worse sinner of the two.

    Wiki tells me that PL is the first time the story is told where they are already in a “full relationship” (sex?) while still being without sin. If anyone cares.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I think this might have started with Milton’s Paradise Lost (17th century, Milton was Protestant). He fleshed the story in Genesis out with a lot of exposition, giving a whole internal dialogue to what Adam and Eve went through (Satan too, possibly others, can’t remember)- whereas previously it was only a dry external account? Anyway, in PL, Adam claims to know it’s wrong before he takes a bite- but he takes a bite anyway because he loves her, and so supposedly he’s the worse sinner of the two.

    Wiki tells me that PL is the first time the story is told where they are already in a “full relationship” (sex?) while still being without sin. If anyone cares.
    I love PL and alongside Dante I do consider it some inspired and inspiring spiritual writing.

    Although I do think its all a species apart from the original source material and its context, I think a lot of westernised Christianity is a little like someone interpreting a text in German who only speaks French.

    There's a lot, a serious lot, of Christianity, at least in terms of the new testament, which I can honestly say I only really appreciated properly after reading a lot of Jewish sources, not just religious but also historical and cultural sources too, such as collections of Jewish wit and wisdom, collected yiddish stories, the Jewish antiquites, including the history of the Jewish struggle with Roman occupation and the Jewish disaporia.

    I think there's a lot of Christians are not keen on that, given the role of the pharisees as executioner in the new testament and also that the school of thought which prevailed eventually, Pauline Christianity, was the most focused upon a break with Judahism rather than continuity such as Matthew or Luke (although Matthew is accused of being anti-semitic, seems a bit mad to me).

    Conversely there's some Jewish sources who would put Christians of thinking that way too in their appraisal of Christianity as nothing much more than age old anti-semitism. Reductive thinking isnt always a good idea I guess.

  3. #53
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    What I liked about Paradise Lost is that Milton somewhat anthropomorphosized Satan- gave him a very human point of view, which made it almost compulsory to sympathize with him.

    What I didn’t like about PL is that expounding on internal dialogue made this paradox even more blatant: if Adam and Eve didn’t have pride-if they felt completely secure and didn't want for anything emotionally- until after she bit the apple, then how could the serpent have lured her into sin by appealing to her pride in the first place?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    What I liked about Paradise Lost is that Milton somewhat anthropomorphosized Satan- gave him a very human point of view, which made it almost compulsory to sympathize with him.

    What I didn’t like about PL is that expounding on internal dialogue made this paradox even more blatant: if Adam and Eve didn’t have pride-if they felt completely secure and didn't want for anything emotionally- until after she bit the apple, then how could the serpent have lured her into sin by appealing to her pride in the first place?
    Yes, I think that is the Catch-22.

    How could eating the fruit cause sin? They would have only picked the fruit if they were already sinful in nature. Hence, they weren't perfect to start with, and neither was paradise. Either they were perfect and wouldn't have fallen, or they were imperfect and already fallen; the whole bit with the fruit only clarifies it.

    To me, this is because the story wasn't meant to make sense in that literal kind of way. The gist is that people had everything but chose to turn from God and thus lost paradise; this also explained the current to the social order, where men because the head of women (so the order is God -> men -> women and so forth), and why there was toil involved in tending the earth, and why women suffered pain in childbirth... you definitely see the "occupational categories" there for male and female roles. And so on.

    You're just taking the way the culture already works, and trying to explain it in a way that makes sense by using this story. Kind of a montheistic way of explaining, "How the Leopard Got His Spots," so to speak.
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    I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems kind of moot, because if the priest's remarks are as reported in the OP, he's simply wrong. That's kind of disturbing.

    He appears to be confusing the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception with virgin birth and original sin. Original sin in Catholic doctrine (in this I don't believe it deviates from other Christian denominations) is about human fallibility, about the impossibility of perfection as demonstrated originally by Adam's and Eve's rebellion in the Garden of Eden. The OP was right.

    The Immaculate Conception is the doctrine that Mary was conceived by her mother free of original sin so that she would be a holy enough vessel to give birth to Christ. That might be where the priest confused original sin with virgin birth. It's bad enough when non-Catholics ignorantly bitch about things that aren't even part of Catholicism. It's even worse when a priest gets it wrong.
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  6. #56
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Adam claims to know it’s wrong before he takes a bite- but he takes a bite anyway because he loves her, and so supposedly he’s the worse sinner of the two.

    Wiki tells me that PL is the first time the story is told where they are already in a “full relationship” (sex?) while still being without sin. If anyone cares.
    That's messed up, that he gets punished for doing something because he loves her. Of course, I think it's messed up that it was wrong in the first place. You could also say she shouldn't have made him feel like he had to, but maybe she didn't on purpose.
    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems kind of moot, because if the priest's remarks are as reported in the OP, he's simply wrong. That's kind of disturbing.

    He appears to be confusing the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception with virgin birth and original sin. Original sin in Catholic doctrine (in this I don't believe it deviates from other Christian denominations) is about human fallibility, about the impossibility of perfection as demonstrated originally by Adam's and Eve's rebellion in the Garden of Eden. The OP was right.

    The Immaculate Conception is the doctrine that Mary was conceived by her mother free of original sin so that she would be a holy enough vessel to give birth to Christ. That might be where the priest confused original sin with virgin birth. It's bad enough when non-Catholics ignorantly bitch about things that aren't even part of Catholicism. It's even worse when a priest gets it wrong.
    I could have been misunderstanding, but I was pretty darn sure that's what he said. In any case, it just didn't make sense to me, and led to amusing (to me) conclusions in my mind, so I thought I'd start a thread to get clarity on things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    That's messed up, that he gets punished for doing something because he loves her. Of course, I think it's messed up that it was wrong in the first place. You could also say she shouldn't have made him feel like he had to, but maybe she didn't on purpose.

    I could have been misunderstanding what he said, but I was pretty darn sure that's what he said. In any case, it just didn't make sense to me, and led to amusing (to me) conclusions in my mind, so I thought I'd start a thread to get clarity on things.
    I hate Milton's Paradise Lost. It's a lot of sexist tripe.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I believe it generally refers to Adam and Even believing the serpent that through eating the fruit they could be like God.
    Since, "The Origin of Species", and confirmed by, "The Double Helix", and subsequent sequencing of the genome, we know for certain there was no Adam and Eve.

    And there being no Adam and Eve, there is no Original Sin and no need for Redemption.

  9. #59
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I hate Milton's Paradise Lost. It's a lot of sexist tripe.
    I think I was supposed to read at least part of it for a class and it just made my eyes cross.

    Of course, I'm convinced that they are purposely trying to make you hate reading with most of the reading assignments they give you from at least middle school on.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think I was supposed to read at least part of it for a class and it just made my eyes cross.

    Of course, I'm convinced that they are purposely trying to make you hate reading with most of the reading assignments they give you from at least middle school on.
    Yeah. I never had to read PL, but we read part of Dante's Inferno, which I thought was one of the most ridiculous things I'd ever read. He must have been an unhappy person.

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