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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yes, Eve understood what she was doing when she ate the fruit, as did Adam. She may not have fully anticipated the consequences of choosing to disobey God, but there was no question about whether her choice was right or wrong in God's eyes. The only connection I can see between their sin and sex is that part of the curse after they left Eden was that her pain in childbirth would be increased. Still, that's a pretty far reach to equate that and sex being wrong.
    Hey, wait a minute. If they didn't have kids before they left the garden, how would the pain be increased? Wouldn't she not know any difference if she hadn't done it before?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Ah, yeah, that makes sense. We don't have so much of that where I'm from. Or if we do, I've missed it. You defend your mother whether she's an angel or not because she's your mother. It's like family in general. You (and sometimes other family members) can say what you want about them, but nobody else better say anything that about them.
    Yeah it was something so matter-of-fact when I was growing up that women were responsible for the upholding of moral fortitude or whatever, I mean it just seems like an exaggerated extension of the practically world-wide "women are supposed to be nice" idea; maybe my family was just really old fashioned, but there's that whole idea that Southern women are supposed to be ladies, and that ladies don't drink in bars (and they need to keep men from doing that), they usually don't even smoke...it's all an extension of that.

    But it's also present in a lot of country music I've noticed, the mother as saint idea.

    However, I think many protestants interpret the Bible that MEN are supposed to be the leaders, and that if men don't set a good example and set the tone for society and for the marriage, that women can't be blamed, because their men aren't being moral and aren't being loving husbands etc.

    It's like a husband is supposed to be kind to his wife so that she'll be happy to obey him, not demand her to obey abusively or with some kind of sinister dominating attitude.

    I actually think in the Bible a lot of responsibility falls upon men to be good leaders for women, and that particular interpretation of holding Adam accountable and Eve not so much would go hand in hand with that.

    But I've noticed in my upbringing that there was like this really obvious unspoken understanding that women were supposed to be "good."

    It's like bad men are expected, but bad women are some kind of abhoration.

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    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Hey, wait a minute. If they didn't have kids before they left the garden, how would the pain be increased? Wouldn't she not know any difference if she hadn't done it before?
    Maybe she'd seen animals give birth? That's the only thing I can think of. Or maybe they did have kids before they left the garden. Now I'm going to have to look to see if Cain is explicitly called their firstborn son.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    You guys should take a look at this, talking about Christianity being paternalistic, I collected this from Torah 101, about the role of women in Judaism:



    So is Christianity or the Bible really paternalistic, or is that just the Roman interpretation? Western culture and ancient Rome are very paternalistic societal structures. A lot of what we interpret in the West as being Christian is through a Western lens.
    That could very well be the case. There are prominent women in the New Testament as well, some of them in leadership positions.

    However, many of the OT laws treat women as the property of their fathers, brothers, and/or husbands. For example, in Numbers 30, if a woman makes a vow her father or husband can nullify her vow if they do so as soon as they hear of it. If they hear of it and say nothing, they are giving implicit consent. This treats women as though they are legally incompetent. However, if they are widowed or divorced (no one's property?), no one can nullify their vows.

    The texts on a lot of things can go either way. I've gotten to where if one doesn't seem more credible than another, I pick the one I like better.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Whoops - this is why I like these conversations - makes you go back and double check. Here's the quote indicating what would change for her (and subsequently for women to come):

    Gen 3:16
    Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


    So it's not saying that the pain would be increased, but rather that now there would be pain when giving birth to children.

    One of the commentaries I read suggested that as she had acted independently of Adam in being in the first to sin, now part of the punishment would be that she would now be subject to him in a way that she wasn't previously. They say that the record of human history has confirmed the accuracy of this prophetic judgement - Woman's lot has been one of pain in many forms - physical, mental, spiritual, and especially in her experience of conception and birth. Generally speaking, man has subjugated woman with little regard fro her own personal feelings and needs. Henry Morris suggests that in non-Christian cultures and religions, such subjugation and humiliation have been almost universal, until very recent times her husband often having even the the power of life and death over her. He goes on to say that such harsh rule went far beyond God's intention. Though the husband was to the be the head of the house, he was to love and cherish his wife, considering her to be one flesh with himself, clinging to his wife.

  5. #45
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Yeah it was something so matter-of-fact when I was growing up that women were responsible for the upholding of moral fortitude or whatever, I mean it just seems like an exaggerated extension of the practically world-wide "women are supposed to be nice" idea; maybe my family was just really old fashioned, but there's that whole idea that Southern women are supposed to be ladies, and that ladies don't drink in bars (and they need to keep men from doing that), they usually don't even smoke...it's all an extension of that.

    But it's also present in a lot of country music I've noticed, the mother as saint idea.

    However, I think many protestants interpret the Bible that MEN are supposed to be the leaders, and that if men don't set a good example and set the tone for society and for the marriage, that women can't be blamed, because their men aren't being moral and aren't being loving husbands etc.

    It's like a husband is supposed to be kind to his wife so that she'll be happy to obey him, not demand her to obey abusively or with some kind of sinister dominating attitude.

    I actually think in the Bible a lot of responsibility falls upon men to be good leaders for women, and that particular interpretation of holding Adam accountable and Eve not so much would go hand in hand with that.

    But I've noticed in my upbringing that there was like this really obvious unspoken understanding that women were supposed to be "good."

    It's like bad men are expected, but bad women are some kind of abhoration.
    I've definitely heard the saying "Men give love to get sex and women give sex to get love" and stuff along those lines. I was raised to not look 'easy' or desperate. Girls were not allowed to call boys, for example. I know plenty of women who believe they can change their men. And of course we have the typical double standard for promiscuity. Oh, and anything that is the least bit wrong with a kid is the mother's fault. Like, if they have their shirt on backwards or a dirty face, you feel like a bad mom. If the dad so much as picks the kid up and shows affection in public, let alone take the kid to the doctor, he's like some kind of benevolent God.

    I don't think it's quite the same thing as you're describing in the south.

    But there is definitely the idea that the man is supposed to be the spiritual head of his house (at last in Protestant circles I've been exposed to). He is most definitely supposed to provide for his family and provide leadership. It's kind of shameful for the wife to 'wear the pants.'

    I get in trouble for that because my husband is even more introverted than I am so I try to pick up the slack by doing the talking when we're out and about. People sometimes try to bypass me and deal with him like I'm some kind of harpy. I also do almost all of the driving when we go places together and generally pay for everything because he hates driving and handling money and those are kind of considered masculine things here.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I've definitely heard the saying "Men give love to get sex and women give sex to get love" and stuff along those lines. I was raised to not look 'easy' or desperate. Girls were not allowed to call boys, for example. I know plenty of women who believe they can change their men. And of course we have the typical double standard for promiscuity. Oh, and anything that is the least bit wrong with a kid is the mother's fault. Like, if they have their shirt on backwards or a dirty face, you feel like a bad mom. If the dad so much as picks the kid up and shows affection in public, let alone take the kid to the doctor, he's like some kind of benevolent God.

    I don't think it's quite the same thing as you're describing in the south.

    But there is definitely the idea that the man is supposed to be the spiritual head of his house (at last in Protestant circles I've been exposed to). He is most definitely supposed to provide for his family and provide leadership. It's kind of shameful for the wife to 'wear the pants.'

    I get in trouble for that because my husband is even more introverted than I am so I try to pick up the slack by doing the talking when we're out and about. People sometimes try to bypass me and deal with him like I'm some kind of harpy. I also do almost all of the driving when we go places together and generally pay for everything because he hates driving and handling money and those are kind of considered masculine things here.
    Yeah everything you say here, and lol at "wearing the pants." You go girl, with your bad pants on.

    I'm very different than many members of my family. In my family there are a lot of tee totalers, I didn't really see alcohol at all growing up, except among severely alcoholic relatives. No one drank wine with dinner. I was shocked one time when I was sixteen to see a (one,1) beer in the fridge that was used to marinate the steaks my grandfather and his wife were grilling.

    There was also this kind of attitude that "women are smarter than men, but we let them believe they're smarter" wink wink nudge nudge.

    It always seemed really disgusting to me, like I didn't want a husband, I didn't want to have to play that game to let somebody think he was smarter than me if he really wasn't ... and I think that kind of attitude creates a lot of "baby men" who never quite grow up or take full responsibility for themselves, in the sense that women expect men to be bad or fuck up somehow or that they "save" them upon their wedding day or some such.

    That's why I always am taken aback when men say that old-school or patriarchal ways actually let women get away with murder or "do nothing" because as far as I knew growing up, if men worked hard to support women, it was because women did every other damn thing, including pick up their husbands dirty socks, clean his toilet, make excuses for his emotionally crippled behavior, and potentially save him from a life of debauchery or just quietly tolerate his meanness.

    I did see good men growing up, don't get me wrong, I saw great men, old-fashioned men with ideas about things like God and glory and love and honor...but erm yeah.

    It still exists in Latino culture as well, I see a lot of parallels of the two, the Latina women are uber-Catholic and good wives and in Mexico in some small towns the women don't drink, but the men do, and mothers may favor or spoil their sons, but expect more responsibility from their daughters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Please elaborate on this concept. I have my own pagan interpretation, but I don't really know any others, other than what I hear the fundamentalists say.
    I'm not sure what you mean by elaborate.

    Look at the mythologies in different cultures. Especially the native/nomadic tribes (such as AmerIndians) had their own myths and legends that very much seem like some of the earliest writings appearing in Genesis. They're just meant to explain why things are the way they are, to create a common bond among the people that serves the kind of values and concepts the tribe wanted to embody and preserve.

    Some of the later writings in the Bible have other tones and forms to them (vs the mythical tones of portions of Genesis).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    However, I think many protestants interpret the Bible that MEN are supposed to be the leaders, and that if men don't set a good example and set the tone for society and for the marriage, that women can't be blamed, because their men aren't being moral and aren't being loving husbands etc.
    There is much support in the NT for such an interpretation, including injunctions for women to be silent at worship, to be submissive to their husbands, and not to be in positions of authority over men. Many churches and people take this all very literally to this day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    It's like a husband is supposed to be kind to his wife so that she'll be happy to obey him, not demand her to obey abusively or with some kind of sinister dominating attitude.
    Yes, this is the basic rationale in all religions of the book. At best, it produces a kinder, gentler sexism.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Oh that's interesting. Kind of like the Buddhist idea of suffering arising from attachment to desires, which arise from mortality.
    Yes it's a variation of the same concept. There are other parallels between Christianity and eastern religions. Such as the practice of Hesychasm, which you could say is a form of Christian yoga. What's usually called "meditation" among Eastern traditions is referred to in Christianity as "contemplation"(meditation has a different meaning in Christianity). Tao could be argued to be an Eastern parallel to the Christian concept of the Logos. I've read Chinese Bibles actually translate "Logos" as "Tao".

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    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by elaborate.

    Look at the mythologies in different cultures. Especially the native/nomadic tribes (such as AmerIndians) had their own myths and legends that very much seem like some of the earliest writings appearing in Genesis. They're just meant to explain why things are the way they are, to create a common bond among the people that serves the kind of values and concepts the tribe wanted to embody and preserve.

    Some of the later writings in the Bible have other tones and forms to them (vs the mythical tones of portions of Genesis).
    Oh ok, just like mythology. That makes sense.


    Excellent discussion; I'm learning a lot. And enjoying the segue into sexism. I wasn't expecting my mischievous comments to be so productive. I like to take opportunities to learn more about Christianity when they come up; there seem to always be new perspectives. So thanks for the good responses.

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