Typology and Integral Philosophy

[Abhaya]

Have you folks heard of Integral Philosophy? I have been reading through one of Ken Wilbur's books and find it very fascinating. He mentions studying typology such as the MBTI as a tool for personal development working with AQAL or all quadrants all levels and also including all lines, all states and all types. Anyway, I really do not know much about Integral Philosophy or the MBTI for that matter but find them fascinating. It seems to be a very comprehensive way of looking at things from many perspectives especially with the four quadrants (see below). Has anyone done any study into this system and how the MBTI fits into it? Thoughts? Opinions?

 

[Samuel De Mazarin]

Ken Wilbur's system is something of a rehash of other similar systems... which is not to say it isn't loaded with merits... but it's not, fundamentally, new...

See Gurdjieff (read the books by Ouspensky, like In Search of the Miraculous and The Fourth Way)

See Yoga and Advaita Vedanta philosophy...

Pick up some Madhyamika Buddhist texts...

Integral Philosophy reminds me most of the sort of syncretistic magpie philosophico-psychologizing of the Theosophy school.

 

[Abhaya]

Somehow I knew that you would post to this thread Samuel. I am aware that concepts in integral philosophy are not entirely new and I am familiar with Advaita Vedanta. In fact it is my favorite school of philosophy. I also like the Yogic philosophies. The Indians just have it going on in this department. I will have to check out Gurdjieff, I am not familiar and I will look into Madhyamika Buddhist texts. I hadn't thought of it before but I do see parallels between integral philosophy and the theosophical perspective. Interesting... but I guess Wilbur would say that his system encompasses them all.

One thing I can't get about Wilbur is that he seems to make a distinction between the pre-rational non-dual perspective and the post-rational non-dual perspective. But when I read the older texts such as the work of Shankara and some Taoist poetry they seem very aware of non-duality and not just in a mythical or mystical way. I think the direct experience of it hasn't changed much and I don't think the non-dual perspectives of today are any "higher level" then they always were.

 

[Samuel De Mazarin]

I'm going to say something here... Ken Wilber's might be one of the biggest, most bulgingest brains in the world... and I'd have to read a lot more of him to get into this... which is why I'm going to get back to you within the next four days...

 

[Abhaya]

Yeah I agree. I need to do the same .

 

[SquirrelTao]

I've read Ken Wilber's A Brief History of Everything and started but not finished one of his larger tomes. I like Wilber's project of trying to build a philosophy in which all valid human ways of knowing and fields of knowledge can be integrated. Of course he's been criticized for his "orienting generalizations" being overgeneralizations and oversimplifications.

What you said suggested to me that his interest in MBTI lies in his quest to develop every part of his personality so that he is not limited to one type. Is that sort of what he is trying to do?

 

[Abhaya]

What I get from it is that maybe for a given situation one would think how all types such as the MBTIs would fit into a given scenario and then do this in all quadrants, all levels, all stages etc. I guess typology just adds more things to consider when using integral philosophy as a way of getting at the heart of a matter. That is just my guess. Although if Ken Wilbur can change his preferences like he can change his brain activity he probably can change types too. Here is a video of him messing around with an EKG machine

 

[aeon]

One thing I can't get about Wilbur is that he seems to make a distinction between the pre-rational non-dual perspective and the post-rational non-dual perspective. But when I read the older texts such as the work of Shankara and some Taoist poetry they seem very aware of non-duality and not just in a mythical or mystical way. I think the direct experience of it hasn't changed much and I don't think the non-dual perspectives of today are any "higher level" then they always were.

I agree, but I would not consider said writings to be pre-rational, so I see no issue, really. When I think "pre-rational non-dual," I tend to consider shamanic, entheogenic, and mythic experience from ten- to twenty-thousand years ago - a time well before said texts.

I very much value the Integral Philosophy, and I have found both pleasure and understanding in Wilbur's writing. I have read most all of his books, and own many of them, and I think and feel they are well worth the time. In particular, I very much enjoy his Integral Psychology.

I do think there is the potential to create a typer that would map in a constructive way to all quadrants, all levels, but I suspect it would be some real work. I can intuit to some degree how MBTI might map to it now, but I suspect that it would be quite incomplete.


cheers,
Ian

 

[Abhaya]

I agree, but I would not consider said writings to be pre-rational, so I see no issue, really. When I think "pre-rational non-dual," I tend to consider shamanic, entheogenic, and mythic experience from ten- to twenty-thousand years ago - a time well before said texts.

Thanks for the insight. That actually puts it into perspective for me, but they way Wilbur presented it, he seemed to consider anything pre-industrialization pre-rational, but maybe I misunderstood. Also, some of what I gather from the Aboriginal perspective suggests a deep understanding of the non-dual nature of the Kosmos and that culture has been in existence for possibly 30,000 years. I also think that we do not really know all the details of our ancient history. We might even be missing some big pieces of it. Dare I speculate extraterrestrial intervention? :rolli:

I very much value the Integral Philosophy, and I have found both pleasure and understanding in Wilbur's writing. I have read most all of his books, and own many of them, and I think and feel they are well worth the time. In particular, I very much enjoy his Integral Psychology.

I do think there is the potential to create a typer that would map in a constructive way to all quadrants, all levels, but I suspect it would be some real work. I can intuit to some degree how MBTI might map to it now, but I suspect that it would be quite incomplete.

I've only dabbled with Integral Philosophy. I have been reading through The Integral Vision (with lots of pictures!) and have skimmed through A Brief History of Everything, but maybe it is about time I pick up Sex, Ecology, Spirituality that is sitting on my brother's book shelf. I agree that making a "typer" that fit with AQAL would be daunting.

All these pre post pre etc. terms drive me crazy but I can't think of any other way to phrase this stuff.

 

[Abhaya]

In particular, I very much enjoy his Integral Psychology.

Is this similar to trans personal psychology?

 

[aeon]

Is this similar to trans personal psychology?

Transpersonal psychology concerns itself with those states of conscious awareness and experience that transcend the individual, or perhaps better said, the experiences of sensation, emotion, and cognition.

In that sense, transpersonal psychology is a subset of the Integral psychology, which incorporates all of those things (and more).


cheers,
Ian

 

[Abhaya]

Transpersonal psychology concerns itself with those states of conscious awareness and experience that transcend the individual, or perhaps better said, the experiences of sensation, emotion, and cognition.

In that sense, transpersonal psychology is a subset of the Integral psychology, which incorporates all of those things (and more).


cheers,
Ian

It is as I suspected I will have to look into this.

 

[SquirrelTao]

What I get from it is that maybe for a given situation one would think how all types such as the MBTIs would fit into a given scenario and then do this in all quadrants, all levels, all stages etc.

I'm having trouble imagining this. How would MBTI apply to the plural quadrant or the external one? Personality seems to me to be only individual and internal.

 

[Abhaya]

I'm having trouble imagining this. How would MBTI apply to the plural quadrant or the external one? Personality seems to me to be only individual and internal.

Well, that is a good point. I don't claim to understand how it fits in all quadrants. My guess would be that personality of individuals play a part in culture and social systems. (?)

 

[Salomé]

*bump*

This guy (Ken Wilbur) fascinates me. Anyone have a view on what his type is?
He has to be E9 and some flavour of NP. Comes across as an extrovert. I've noticed people who are more integrated tend to be more balanced on T/F and I/E (and thus harder to type). Or perhaps people who are more balanced just come across as more integrated? Dunno.
I'd say ENTP, tentatively. Ne-dom almost certainly.

Attached on interiorists vs exteriorists in US politics is interesting (you need a basic understanding of Spiral Dynamics / Integral Theory to know what he is talking about).

Thoughts?

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQRUu_4W2j8"]Integral Politics[/YOUTUBE]

 

[InsatiableCuriosity]

Thanks for bumping this thread - and for this video Morgan. I suspect that Ken Wilbur is almost balanced E/I. I am not so certain about the ENTP tho?? He seems to be extraverting his iNtuition?? From conversations with both ENTPs and INTPs, his confidence in addressing a group, and his natural ability to interpret for an audience he is seeking to inform fits closer to INTPs rather than ENTPs - would an ENTP care to comment?? Most other INTPs I know (and I know a few), confidence and passion in a subject where seeking to inform others, no matter how large the audience/group, is a position that would seem to belie the perception of how an I functions.

 

[Salomé]

Hm. Maybe. But his manner of gesturing and charismatic, fluent way of speaking say "extrovert" to me. Just one who has introspected / meditated a great deal. (The guy can control his own brainwaves!?!)

I used to know a brilliant ENTP architect with a similar sort of global way of thinking and connecting everything. I would get exhausted just listening to him speak and trying to keep up with all his ideas, but I could see how much it energized him to have an audience.

 

[Sniffles]

Attached on interiorists vs exteriorists in US politics is interesting (you need a basic understanding of Spiral Dynamics / Integral Theory to know what he is talking about).

Thoughts?

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQRUu_4W2j8"]Integral Politics[/YOUTUBE]

"Buddha in some ways was a staunch Republican and in other ways a staunch Democrat."

I stopped paying attention after he said that.

 

[Salomé]

"Buddha in some ways was a staunch Republican and in other ways a staunch Democrat."

I stopped paying attention after he said that.

That's because you're a J.

It was really interesting. Your loss.

 

[Sniffles]

That's because you're a J.

It was really interesting. Your loss.

May I ask what you found interesting about it? I'm curious.

For me, to try to draw connections between Republicans and Democrats and teachings of the Buddha presents alot of considerable problems, just as it would if you did the same of connecting them to Christ. First off, this means blurring the lines between political ideologies and religious/philosophical teachings. Not only that, but Republicans and Democrats are both operating within the same political parameters, just with two different twists. To try to draw some major categorical differences on that premise also presents problems. That's kinda my basic take on this.

I understand the basic point he's trying to make(interiorists focus more on personal responsibility vs exteriorists who focus more on social responsibility), I just object to the methodology and paradigm he's operating under to make it.