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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I understand the basic point he's trying to make(interiorists focus more on personal responsibility vs exteriorists who focus more on social responsibility), I just object to the methodology and paradigm he's operating under to make it.
    My gut reaction is to agree that there's little good can come of either blurring the boundaries between faith and politics or making associations of this kind between modernity and premodernity.

    On the other hand there are perrenial ideas or symbolic concepts which keep showing up using religion, ideology or culture as a vehicle or banner of convenience.

    Although I think that clip you quoted from the other poster is anything other than a kind of vulgar association, like connecting ideologies to popular sports figures or celebs.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    My gut reaction is to agree that there's little good can come of either blurring the boundaries between faith and politics or making associations of this kind between modernity and premodernity.

    On the other hand there are perrenial ideas or symbolic concepts which keep showing up using religion, ideology or culture as a vehicle or banner of convenience.
    No doubt there are, and studying those connections is a legitimate concern. Political Theology for example is the study of the relationship between theological concepts and political presuppositions. This is legitimate, however, as Prof. Christos Yannaras explains, the temptation is often to reduce being a Christian to merely being active in socio-political matters.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    No doubt there are, and studying those connections is a legitimate concern. Political Theology for example is the study of the relationship between theological concepts and political presuppositions. This is legitimate, however, as Prof. Christos Yannaras explains, the temptation is often to reduce being a Christian to merely being active in socio-political matters.
    Yeah, I think there's a fundamental difference between faith properly understood and temporal or worldly affairs.

  4. #24
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    May I ask what you found interesting about it? I'm curious.

    For me, to try to draw connections between Republicans and Democrats and teachings of the Buddha presents alot of considerable problems, just as it would if you did the same of connecting them to Christ. First off, this means blurring the lines between political ideologies and religious/philosophical teachings. Not only that, but Republicans and Democrats are both operating within the same political parameters, just with two different twists. To try to draw some major categorical differences on that premise also presents problems. That's kinda my basic take on this.

    I understand the basic point he's trying to make(interiorists focus more on personal responsibility vs exteriorists who focus more on social responsibility), I just object to the methodology and paradigm he's operating under to make it.
    You're both missing the point completely.

    Blurring the lines/ finding connections / looking at things from multiple perspectives is what the Integral approach is all about.

    He's actually showing that a lot of the distinctions that we think exist are completely artificial and a result of being trapped in a too narrow a frame of reference. There is partial truth to be found in multiple approaches.
    The most interesting bit was towards the end (15:00 onwards)- how the US regressed after 9/11 to an ethnocentric, imperialistic mindset and how that was both necessary and damaging at the same time. I like his "Third Way" ideas (although Tony Blair failed spectacularly to implement them).

    But anyway, that wasn't my main reason for posting or I would have posted in the Politics sub-forum. It's just illustrative of his way of thinking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #25
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    *bump*

    This guy (Ken Wilbur) fascinates me. Anyone have a view on what his type is?
    He has to be E9 and some flavour of NP. Comes across as an extrovert. I've noticed people who are more integrated tend to be more balanced on T/F and I/E (and thus harder to type). Or perhaps people who are more balanced just come across as more integrated? Dunno.
    I'd say ENTP, tentatively. Ne-dom almost certainly.
    Yeah, he definitely seems Ne dom.

    Very broad connective thinking (and it even seemed hard for him to stay on track at times .)

    I wonder if he ever did get back to why Buddha was, in some ways, Republican and, in some ways, Democrat.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Yeah, he definitely seems Ne dom.

    Very broad connective thinking (and it even seemed hard for him to stay on track at times .)

    I wonder if he ever did get back to why Buddha was, in some ways, Republican and, in some ways, Democrat.
    Did you see him writing without looking down whilst continuing to speak?

    Republican: Everything is Kharma
    Democrat: Fucked with the caste system, extending rights to the Untouchables.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    You're both missing the point completely.

    Blurring the lines/ finding connections / looking at things from multiple perspectives is what the Integral approach is all about.
    I still stand by my argument that he's going about this the wrong way.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I still stand by my argument that he's going about this the wrong way.
    Going about what? He's a philosopher, not a politician.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Going about what? He's a philosopher, not a politician.
    Still in trying to analyze and show how artificial certain political categories are he's not making much sense here. I would say he's operating out of his league in that regards. Im not even challenging the valdity of Integral Philosophy here even, rather challenging how he's decided to apply it to political matters.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Still in trying to analyze and show how artificial certain political categories are he's not making much sense here. I would say he's operating out of his league in that regards.
    He was an advisor to Clinton and Blair. Maybe they were out of their league too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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