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  1. #1
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Default Why do Christians deserve salvation for being Christian?

    Please explain.

  2. #2
    WALMART
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    They are adept at turning the other cheek, etc

  3. #3
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    They don't deserve salvation. That's the point. Being Christian is a response to being saved.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #4
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    They are adept at turning the other cheek, etc
    Makes sense, but still doesn't answer the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    They don't deserve salvation. That's the point. Being Christian is a response to being saved.
    Then what good is it?

  5. #5
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    Then what good is it?
    It brings glory to God, enjoyment to the believer, and creates a framework for what is good to begin with so that good might be spread throughout the world.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    Please explain.
    A father has two sons and a large inheritance to bequeath. One son has a good relationship with the father, admires him, and is grateful. The other son is resentful of his father and never visits. Your question is akin to asking why the first son is deserving of the inheritance.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  7. #7
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    It brings glory to God, enjoyment to the believer, and creates a framework for what is good to begin with so that good might be spread throughout the world.
    So then is it spreading good that is part of salvation? Then is that salvation in itself?

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    A father has two sons and a large inheritance to bequeath. One son has a good relationship with the father, admires him, and is grateful. The other son is resentful of his father and never visits. Your question is akin to asking why the first son is deserving of the inheritance.
    No, my question is akin to the second son getting the inheritance.

    I thought it would be a contradiction if a Christian gained salvation for being Christian and not for producing good. Then their God does not care about or encourage ideas of what is good and is perhaps equivalent to the idea of Satan. I just wanted to see what people would say.

  8. #8
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    So then is it spreading good that is part of salvation? Then is that salvation in itself?

    If we are referring to salvation as only justification and being seen as righteous before God, then no, it is not earned and cannot be earned according to Protestants (I won't speak for roman Catholics or eastern orthodox as their views on justification differ). All of those things are done out of gratitude and obedience.

    Barking does not make something into a dog, but a dog barks because it is a dog.

    No, my question is akin to the second son getting the inheritance.

    I thought it would be a contradiction if a Christian gained salvation for being Christian and not for producing good. Then their God does not care about or encourage ideas of what is good and is perhaps equivalent to the idea of Satan. I just wanted to see what people would say.
    That's what the older brother thought. He was wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke 15:11-32
    11 And he said, "There was a man who had two sons.
    12 And the younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.' And he divided his property between them.
    13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living.
    14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need.
    15 So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs.
    16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
    17 "But when he came to himself, he said, 'How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger!
    18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you.
    19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants."'
    20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
    21 And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
    22 But the father said to his servants, 'Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet.
    23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate.
    24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.' And they began to celebrate.

    25 "Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing.
    26 And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant.
    27 And he said to him, 'Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him back safe and sound.'
    28 But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him,
    29 but he answered his father, 'Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends.
    30 But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!'
    31 And he said to him, 'Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours.
    32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.'"
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #9
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    They don't deserve salvation. That's the point. Being Christian is a response to being saved.
    I thought Jesus saved all of humanity (from his (father's) wrath). Wouldn't that make all of humanity Christian?

  10. #10
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    If we are referring to salvation as only justification and being seen as righteous before God, then no, it is not earned and cannot be earned according to Protestants (I won't speak for roman Catholics or eastern orthodox as their views on justification differ). All of those things are done out of gratitude and obedience.
    That's creepy then. These people would rather serve a God that does not consider them as equal. It doesn't sound like a healthy way to view their own potential and worth.

    Barking does not make something into a dog, but a dog barks because it is a dog.
    That's what I mean. If someone does good because they wanted to, that's quite different than doing good because they expect something in return for it.

    That's what the older brother thought. He was wrong.
    I don't quite understand because he didn't necessarily do anything bad; the inheritance was divided among them and there's nothing to say that he didn't care about his father. He screwed up and was in need and his father helped him. The only one really hurt was the other son who narcissistically feels betrayed by the devaluing of his image. That's really his problem though. It's not really his right to tell someone else they shouldn't love someone because it goes against a social rule he believes in.

    It would be a little different if the son didn't care for the father and hurt him, only to come back later, expecting his savings and to take it away from the other son who actually cared about his father. Then he's getting rewarded, without there being any inherent good in it, as it sends the opposite message that it isn't necessary to be good to one another for salvation. But that's not quite what this is talking about. Interesting though...

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