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Thread: Miracles

  1. #11
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Even if I believe in God (which I do), then I believe it was God who is the architect of the universe, and constructed the laws it's founded on. If something occurs that's completely outside those laws, I'd call them strange or an exception to the rule. They would need examination. I don't call everything else in nature a miracle too. That just diminishes what the actual miracles are, and why they may have happened, or if they happened, why God intervened in this one instant, but across the world, some kids randomly died by a landmine. What made this situation more important? I have to focus on particulars. Not "everything is miracle, so it's OK".

    "God helps those who help themselves".. Funnily, a favorite saying of Joan of Arc. Her way of urging action...even if she was the recipient of unique circumstances herself.
    Yes, that is why I have difficulty believing in a loving God who also intervenes physically.

  2. #12
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    The term 'miracles' in a traditional sense is a fallacy, as is magic and the supernatural. They are inherently flawed models of operation, pre-admitted cop-outs on science and reason - therefore having absolutely not one ounce of weight on my mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by Juice View Post
    I’ve experienced several, including supernatural, so for me it’s not a belief.

    I also have empirical evidence to prove it.

    I am curious about this statement of empirical evidence.

  3. #13
    ISFJophile zelo1954's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Yes, that is why I have difficulty believing in a loving God who also intervenes physically.
    As far as I'm concerned - absolutely spot on Gromit. Philosophically God cannot be both all-loving and almighty (in the sense that God can physically intervene in our world at will). You pays your money and takes your choice. I very quickly realised that I wasn't in the slightest bit interested in a God that was not all-loving. So I realised I had to give up the idea that God was almighty. It's AMAZING how everything falls into place when you do that. I can thoroughly recommend it to anyone.
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  4. #14
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    I'm not indifferent to the suffering and pain in the world as I've witnessed it everywhere from the ICU to the landfills in the developing world. I'm just more concerned about why good things happen to bad people. As long as you start with the premise that God doesn't owe humans anything one can be quite logically consistent and yet find cosmic purpose in grace, mercy, and redemption. The only thing worst than suffering is suffering with no purpose.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    cosmic purpose in grace, mercy, and redemption
    That, to me is where the power of the divine lies, where the real miracles occur, on the inside.

  6. #16
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I don't know how to make sense of why "God doesn't intervene", but I'll leave it at that. I'm left a little dumbfounded. Even Jesus was dumbfounded on the day of his death. "My god, my god, why have you forsaken me?"

    Immediately jumping to a full explanation of "God doesn't owe us anything" sets a dangerous precedent. I've rather be confused. I don't know if it's true or not, but if God doesn't owe us anything, then what's that say about what people owe to each other? A doctor who wants to cure a baby of.. say.. having a blocked wind passage.. is going to do his damnedest to rectify the situation. A good kid who sees some bullies picking on another kid is going to step in and defend him. Indeed, even science fights for the truth and discovery, and sometimes creates modern miracles. And sheds our collective ignorance. It's that spirit to fight and step in that signifies the best of humanity. Kant called "duty" the best expression of morality. I'm not a big fan of his writing style, but I agree. Jesus also expressed this as his last commandment.. "Love one another." He thought we owed each other something at least.

    Why God isn't always intervening himself, I don't know. It's going to remain one of the biggest mysteries (and to some, one of the biggest follies of religious thought). I do know that whatever you do think, it's best to not let it shape your own thoughts. The real question in a way is why aren't "we"/"you"/"I" intervening? Not God. There are a lot of things that can be solved without the use of miracles ( I'm not great at it either.. I'm awful really. Something is pulling my strings though to not fall too much that way).

  7. #17
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    I find the idea of a fallible god, epic ongoing celestial battle between good and evil, angels and demons, god and satan kind of exciting in a science fictioney/comic bookey kind of way.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    I find the idea of a fallible god, epic ongoing celestial battle between good and evil, angels and demons, god and satan kind of exciting in a science fictioney/comic bookey kind of way.
    Generally speaking, Reformed Christianity (and a lot older Catholic/Orthodox) doesn't teach a "good vs evil" dichotomy btw. The teaching is that Jesus "won" already (while evil itself, in St. Augustine's words, is merely the absence of good). Evangelicals and pentecostals are the ones fascinated with the power of evil, giving darkness a momentum of it's own, and think Satan is always still at work to ruin your life. The supernatural in their minds is constantly turning the tides, while every upset is because the devil is persecuting you.

  9. #19
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    I would define a miracle in a scientific and non-religious sense; basically what @bologna said.

    But even then, what is a miracle and what isn't is subjective anyway. One could say that the entire universe is a miracle (for us), fined tuned to allow humans to survive in its depths and another might say nothing is a miracle, with everything being systematic, purposeful and simply obeying the laws of nature.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I'm just more concerned about why good things happen to bad people. As long as you start with the premise that God doesn't owe humans anything one can be quite logically consistent and yet find cosmic purpose in grace, mercy, and redemption. The only thing worst than suffering is suffering with no purpose.
    "I know of men who have done evil in order that good may come of it in future centuries, or may already have come of it in centuries past... Viewed in that way, all our acts are just, though also unimportant. There are no spiritual or intellectual merits."

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