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  1. #31
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Her death was specifically political. She was killed by the English, for successfully turning the tide in a hundred year long war. The accusation of religious crimes was a convenient way to save face (or so they thought). Many Catholics at the time sided with her, and even gave her armies to command. The pope at the time thought she was a hero when he heard of her.
    Was that after she was already dead? We all know the power of martyred hero(in)es.

    In any case, much if not most of the witch burning (or hanging, drowning, pressing, etc.) was politically or economically driven. Just look at the Salem Witch hysteria in the U.S. It was all based on who wanted his neighbor's farm/land. The craziness of a Caribbean slave and a couple of girls was leveraged into a situation that became a free-for-all, as neighbors denounced neighbors to make their assets forfeit. I understand similar motivations were afoot in Europe, but for much longer, over much broader territory, and with a much higher death toll. An important subplot involved suppressing the influence and traditions of women midwives and healers in favor of the rising profession of medical doctors. Like rape, it was all about power, and little about theology/belief.

    This is always the danger of religion, especially institutionalized religion. Too many people believe too blindly, and are too easily used and manipulated through their beliefs.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #32
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Was that after she was already dead? We all know the power of martyred hero(in)es.

    In any case, much if not most of the witch burning (or hanging, drowning, pressing, etc.) was politically or economically driven. Just look at the Salem Witch hysteria in the U.S. It was all based on who wanted his neighbor's farm/land. The craziness of a Caribbean slave and a couple of girls was leveraged into a situation that became a free-for-all, as neighbors denounced neighbors to make their assets forfeit. I understand similar motivations were afoot in Europe, but for much longer, over much broader territory, and with a much higher death toll. Like rape, it was all about power, and little about theology/belief.
    I had no idea the Salem trials were about land. The version I'm familiar with is that it was little girls, living in a patriarchal society, suddenly finding themselves famous after one trial, and able to bend the masses at their will. So they used that for all it was worth. Maybe it was a little of both.

    Joan was awesome though, in any case. I can't remember how removed in time that Pope was. I know that he reopened the case, and the papacy grilled both French and English involved, and that he vindicated her family. She didn't become a saint though until last century. That pope didn't think of her in specifically religious terms of the time. I can't directly quote, but his writings sounded like an admiration of a cultural hero. Not a martyr per se.

  3. #33
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    I think there is also a bit of excitement because he represents some sort of hope for the future of the church. Someone a bit more active, engaging, etc. Benedict always seemed too strong a traditionalist for the job.

  4. #34
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    I think there is also a bit of excitement because he represents some sort of hope for the future of the church. Someone a bit more active, engaging, etc. Benedict always seemed too strong a traditionalist for the job.
    If ALL the new pope does is to live up to the name he has taken, it will be progress for the church, and benefit to the world.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #35
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The church is full of SJs, but then so is everywhere else. There are SPs, who stereotypically are the "sinners" who repent and come back to the fold. Many church scholars are probably NTs, but they are a small minority of Catholics. It is only in very recent times that the laity were encouraged even to read the Bible. The Catholic Church long opposed translation of the Bible and later the liturgy into the vernacular, so ordinary people even could understand it. There was very definitely a mentality of "don't look behind the curtain - we [the hierarchy] will tell you what to believe and how to live. That is still alive and well, among many in authority, and many ordinary believers. It contradicts democratic principles, however, which is part of why the Catholic church in the U.S. has often seemed out of step with the Vatican. Where does this leave NFs? Probably most disappointed of all, since they really want it all to be true.
    That's probably true. Especially as there are more SJ's and S's in general than N's. Two of my super religious Southern Baptist grandparents are ESFJ and ESTJ, and then my other grandad who seems like an NT is not super religious, only conservative and somewhat dogmatic. He's a Freemason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I don't have to be hostile toward individuals, to be hostile toward ideas. When individuals espouse these ideas, especially uncritically, they tend to lose my respect at least.
    Yeah, this is more my position.

  6. #36
    your resident asshole
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    I think there is also a bit of excitement because he represents some sort of hope for the future of the church. Someone a bit more active, engaging, etc. Benedict always seemed too strong a traditionalist for the job.
    Well I know that the big thing was that he is from Argentina, but other than that, I don't see how he is going to be much of a change from the last pope. From the bits that I've read, Pope Francis has essentially the same views as Pope Benedict XVI.

  7. #37
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    In any case, much if not most of the witch burning (or hanging, drowning, pressing, etc.) was politically or economically driven. Just look at the Salem Witch hysteria in the U.S. It was all based on who wanted his neighbor's farm/land. The craziness of a Caribbean slave and a couple of girls was leveraged into a situation that became a free-for-all, as neighbors denounced neighbors to make their assets forfeit. I understand similar motivations were afoot in Europe, but for much longer, over much broader territory, and with a much higher death toll. An important subplot involved suppressing the influence and traditions of women midwives and healers in favor of the rising profession of medical doctors. Like rape, it was all about power, and little about theology/belief.

    This is always the danger of religion, especially institutionalized religion. Too many people believe too blindly, and are too easily used and manipulated through their beliefs.
    I'm sure this is true, for the reasons you point out in the past paragraph- unscrupulous people will always capitalize on opportunities. The objection against Christianity is that it was all justified by and in the name of religion, and so fostered prejudiced and negative attitudes in the uneducated population. Even though any religion can be manipulated, any religion which is that easily manipulated (and I have my theories as to why in the case of Christianity) is a bad one in my book since the purpose is supposed to be to cultivate people toward their highest good- whether that is virtue, compassion, wisdom, reason, etc. And historically Catholicism in my opinion has done more to push people away from that than toward it. A good religion should be both explicit and internally consistent enough so as to not be easily interpreted in the wrong ways, and vague enough in key ways to allow and encourage critical thinking and individual decision making.

  8. #38
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I'm sure this is true, for the reasons you point out in the past paragraph- unscrupulous people will always capitalize on opportunities. The objection against Christianity is that it was all justified by and in the name of religion, and so fostered prejudiced and negative attitudes in the uneducated population. Even though any religion can be manipulated, any religion which is that easily manipulated (and I have my theories as to why in the case of Christianity) is a bad one in my book since the purpose is supposed to be to cultivate people toward their highest good- whether that is virtue, compassion, wisdom, reason, etc. And historically Catholicism in my opinion has done more to push people away from that than toward it. A good religion should be both explicit and internally consistent enough so as to not be easily interpreted in the wrong ways, and vague enough in key ways to allow and encourage critical thinking and individual decision making.
    You should type yourself INFP again.

    Nothing wrong with that btw. You just seem to have the idealism very typical of them. It has no room for evolution, ugliness, failure, impurity. Not many people like those things, but they also try to come to grips with them. Or work despite them.

  9. #39
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    You should type yourself INFP again.

    Nothing wrong with that btw. You just seem to have the idealism very typical of them. It has no room for evolution, ugliness, failure, impurity. Not many people like those things, but they also try to come to grips with them. Or work despite them.
    Good point.
    Well, I acknowledge those things exist (although I don't know what you mean by evolution, as that is a good thing). I just think that it makes sense to try to minimize them. That might be an Fi characteristic, but I don't think it entails it. I acknowledge I have a fair amount of idealism, but I don't think I am more idealistic in temperament than rational. Do you as a TP simply not concern yourself with how to minimize negative effects of things or pick out flaws in things?

  10. #40
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Good point.
    Well, I acknowledge those things exist (although I don't know what you mean by evolution, as that is a good thing). I just think that it makes sense to try to minimize them. That might be an Fi characteristic, but I don't think it entails it. I acknowledge I have a fair amount of idealism, but I don't think I am more idealistic in temperament than rational. Do you as a TP simply not concern yourself with how to minimize negative effects of things or pick out flaws in things?
    It's not that I don't want to minimize them. I just cope with them differently, I think. And I try to understand them to a point. I don't keep my mind on the ideal and say "this is how things should be". Sometimes I just want to know how something came to be, in the first place. You could say that's my own way to the ideal, of looking at a problem, and hopefully learning enough to not repeat it. I could be wrong, but I think INFPs just want to turn away, and point to perfection.. knowing what's right is good enough. Understanding what's wrong is not necessary.

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