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  1. #111
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Please! Please! Please! While the Germans had Goebels, the Americans have Edward Bernays, who wrote the book, "Propaganda", which has guided American propaganda ever since.
    News to me. I'll Google it. My point is, Propaganda has always seemed more tricky in the US. It's like you need a whole other level of fact checking.. because they aren't going to tell you yourself. American propaganda is espoused in the spirit of conmen, like PT Barnum. "There's a sucker born every minute."

  2. #112
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    C'mon every one and their dog knows there are three civilizations extant today - the Chinese civilization, the Indian Civilization and the Western Civilization.

    I live in the West and our biggest trading partner is China and as I write we are forming a military alliance with India to secure the Indian ocean.
    Well, I'm not everyone, or their dog. And I know better.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    News to me. I'll Google it. My point is, Propaganda has always seemed more tricky in the US. It's like you need a whole other level of fact checking.. because they aren't going to tell you yourself. American propaganda is espoused in the spirit of conmen, like PT Barnum. "There's a sucker born every minute."
    Propaganda is very interesting. For instance, propaganda is neither true nor false, rather propaganda is plausible or implausible.

    So for instance, good propaganda can be false and plausible, and bad propaganda can be true and implausible.

    And a good propagandists never believes their own propaganda. While the first temptation of a naive propagandist is to believe their own propaganda.

    So for instance, the propagandists for mbti here on Central believe their own propaganda.

    And every time you see an American advertisement, or see an American movie, or listen to Americanism, that is, American ideology, you are listening to Edward Bernays.

    And why have you never heard of Edward Bernays, why is Edward Bernays subliminal? It's because the propaganda of Edward Bernays is subliminal and all the more effective for being invisible.

  4. #114
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Propaganda is very interesting. For instance, propaganda is neither true nor false, rather propaganda is plausible or implausible.

    So for instance, good propaganda can be false and plausible, and bad propaganda can be true and implausible.

    And a good propagandists never believes their own propaganda. While the first temptation of a naive propagandist is to believe their own propaganda.

    So for instance, the propagandist for mbti here on Central believe their own propaganda.

    And every time you see an Amerian advertisement, or see an American movie, or listen to Americanism, that is American ideology, you are listening to Edward Bernays.

    And why have you never heard of Edward Bernays, why is Edward Bernays subliminal? It's because the propaganda of Edward Bernays is subliminal and all the more effective for being invisible.
    It could be that I've been subliminally manipulated to not have heard of him. Mostly though, it's just because propaganda is a recent interest of mine, and I haven't delved into it enough.

    Goebels believed in the basic premise of his propaganda. Just maybe not all the ways he went about it. He believed the German people needed more than jobs and leaders to take pride in their country. The ultimate step to him was that they needed a national myth.. an identity founded on that, rather. He believed that for himself, as well.

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Well, I'm not everyone, or their dog. And I know better.
    Well, let me put you on the spot. Please name another civilization extant today, apart from the three I mentioned.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    It could be that I've been subliminally manipulated to not have heard of him. Mostly though, it's just because propaganda a recent interest of mine, and I haven't delved into it enough.

    Goebels believed in the basic premise of his propaganda. Just maybe not all the ways he went about it. He believed the German people needed more than jobs and leaders to take pride in their country. The ultimate step to him was that they needed a national myth.. an identity founded on that, rather. He believed that for himself, as well.
    So if Joseph Goebbels believed his own propaganda, he was a bad propagandist. He was such a bad propagandist, he destroyed his own country, his own family, and himself, not to mention millions of others.

    By comparison Edward Bernays is a good propagandist, and led the successful industrialisation of America.

  7. #117
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Well, let me put you on the spot. Please name another civilization extant today, apart from the three I mentioned.
    OK, I'll bite, even though I know how this is going to turn out.

    First, I don't see "Western civilization" as a single monolithic entity. Second, I would add mainly African (also not monolithic), and Islamic/Arabic. There are many others, much more limited in numbers and geography.

    Of course, you can just try to dismiss these by claiming that they somehow don't count as civilizations; but this would mean simply that your definition is too restrictive. You would have a better case to claim your three candidates as the most widespread, or influential, or [insert debatable quality here] civilizations in the world today, but that is all.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #118
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    So if Joseph Goebbels believed his own propaganda, he was a bad propagandist. He was such a bad propagandist, he destroyed his own country, his own family, and himself, not to mention millions of others.
    lol.. Well, I think he finally stopped believing it at the last moment.

    His last address was to the Berlin people, about staying strong against the incoming invasion. Right after that though, he killed his family and himself. Not enough belief for his own sake, but I guess he still wanted the Germans to not capitulate.

  9. #119
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    By comparison Edward Bernays is a good propagandist, and led the successful industrialisation of America.
    Ronald Reagan was one of our best propagandists. Cheerleader for America, par excellence. I find it ironically fitting that he ruled during the popularity of the musical Evita.

    Instead of government we had a stage
    Instead of ideas, a prima donna's rage
    Instead of help we were given a crowd
    She didn't say much, but she said it loud
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    OK, I'll bite, even though I know how this is going to turn out.

    First, I don't see "Western civilization" as a single monolithic entity. Second, I would add mainly African (also not monolithic), and Islamic/Arabic. There are many others, much more limited in numbers and geography.

    Of course, you can just try to dismiss these by claiming that they somehow don't count as civilizations; but this would mean simply that your definition is too restrictive. You would have a better case to claim your three candidates as the most widespread, or influential, or [insert debatable quality here] civilizations in the world today, but that is all.
    A civilization contains all that humans are capable of.

    So Islam doesn't contain science and so is not a civilization. And tribal Africa doesn't contain science and so also is not a civilization.

    And the West is not monolithic. Over three thousand years the West has been formed by Ancient Greek philosophy, Judaism, Christianity and the Enlightenment.

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