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  1. #11
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post

    However, when you actually study the Bible, it seems more similar in its parables and broad concepts to Taoism and Buddhism, particularly in the New Testament, which would all be Eastern thought.
    Interestingly, China has a better word for John chapter 1's use of the "Word" (greek "logos"). In Chinese translations, John is translated "In the beginning was the Tao.." (this isn't some new fad based translation btw). Tao captures a lot of the spirit of John's meaning of logos. "Word" was a carryover from Jerome's Latin translation "Verbum". It doesn't convey it appropriately. Logos was a living, all embodying force. Like Tao. There was power in "speech" under this view, but it goes beyond just "the Word".

    Anyways, just thought I'd chime in. It's kind of neat that a Chinese translation is more accurate, in this case.

  2. #12
    morose bourgeoisie
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    'logos' means word or priciple in ancient Greek. Since the first new testament was written in Greek, then it makes sense that the authors, who were fluent in Greek, knew what the word meant, and that a modern Chinese translation that differs from that meaning can't be more accurate.

  3. #13
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    'logos' means word or priciple in ancient Greek. Since the first new testament was writtien in Greek, then it makes sense that the authors, who were fluent in Greek, knew what the word meant, and that a modern Chinese translation that differs from that meaning can't be more accurate.
    Read up on philosophy. Not grammar. The logos of Heraclitus and the Stoics, and the Jewish Philosopher Philo (who in turned influenced Jews in the 1st century) all gave it a divine "living" nature. This is the logos John was referencing.

  4. #14
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Read up on philosophy. Not grammar. The logos of Heraclitus and the Stoics, and the Jewish Philosopher Philo (who in turned influenced Jews in the 1st century) all gave it a divine "living" nature. This is the logos John was referencing.
    It has nothing to do with grammar. Learn to read Koine and get back to me...

  5. #15
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    It has nothing to do with grammar. Learn to read Koine and get back to me...
    Koine is grammar.

    And while I don't speak Koine (nobody does), you can find any New Testament Greek lexicon of your own choice, and they will touch on what logos meant. It still had the same Stoic connotations popular at the time. When John uses it, he's saying the "Word" was a living thing. Not a word. "Through it all things came to be". The verbs he uses "to be" are unique as well. They represent a sense of present flowing activity. It's not meant to be a "principle", but an "animating principle". The same way Stoics used it, the same way Heraclitus used it, the same way Philo used it, and very similar to how Taoists defined Tao.

    I know you want to be cool and shit, and contradict me, but it's unnecessary.

  6. #16
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Koine is grammar.

    And while I don't speak Koine (nobody does), you can find any New Testament Greek lexicon of your own choice, and they will touch on what logos meant. It still had the same Stoic connotations popular at the time. When John uses it, he's saying the "Word" was a living thing. Not a word. "Through it all things came to be". The verbs he uses "to be" are unique as well. They represent a sense of present flowing activity. It's not meant to be a "principle", but an "animating principle". The same way Stoics used it, the same way Heraclitus used it, the same way Philo used it, and very similar to how Taoists defined Tao.

    I know you want to be cool and shit, and contradict me, but it's unnecessary.
    Koine was a dialect of Greek used during Roman times because it was the 'Lingua Franca' of the Mediterranean world at that time, used in order to make ‘the word’ accessible to the greatest number people.
    I already have a copy of the New Testament in Koine Greek, and I’ve read it, including John, which is very simple Greek by the way. It shouldn’t take you long to learn it and rebut me.
    I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but you were not accurate above.

  7. #17
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    Koine was a dialect of Greek used during Roman times because it was the 'Lingua Franca' of the Mediterranean world at that time, used in order to make ‘the word’ accessible to the greatest number people.
    I already have a copy of the New Testament in Koine Greek, and I’ve read it, including John, which is very simple Greek by the way. It shouldn’t take you long to learn it and rebut me.
    I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but you were not accurate above.
    You are picking a fight. You started off on the wrong foot, proclaiming my ignorance. And trying to use "big words" like Koine, as if I didn't know it. Have fun with your pride. I don't need to add anything else.

    Oh, wait, one last thing. You called the Chinese translation "modern" btw. I guess it's relatively modern, if we take into account the totality of civilization. These are based on translations started in the 1700s, by Jesuits. Other translations following since have adopted "Tao" for logos. Even Protestant ones. There's a famous Protestant writer named Watchman Nee who has incorporated a lot of it in his writings.

  8. #18
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Western thought relies on logic, categories and opposing dichotomies
    This all came to an end with Sigmund Freud and Edward L. Bernays and his book, "Propaganda", click on -

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

    and - www.whale.to/b/bernays.pdf

    No wonder Sigmund is disrespected and Edward L. Bernays is forgotten, when they changed Western culture from logic to trance.

    And we have been entranced ever since without knowing it.

  9. #19
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    as a note on @KDude and @Stanton Moore 's argument here, I first read the I Ching when a nun gave me a copy of it while I was spending the summer in a convent, pointing out the similarities between the way and the way

    and to the OP, I've always seen optimism and pessimism to be a situational thing as opposed to a monolithic philosophy of any sort
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #20
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    as a note on @KDude and @Stanton Moore 's argument here, I first read the I Ching when a nun gave me a copy of it while I was spending the summer in a convent, pointing out the similarities between the way and the way
    Those pesky nuns. Tsk tsk. Reading books by those puppy eating yellow people.

    USA USA USA USA!!

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