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  1. #1
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    Default Difference in Fi vs Ti in the conclusion of a god

    I'm going to compare INTP's and INFP's for a minute.

    In my experience, many INTP's, including Einstein (I've heard he's an ENTP... I don't think it really matters though) have eventually come to the conclusion that there is a god, but not one in the christian biblical sense who takes part in the fates of man.

    I find INFP's to be more often than not spiritual people with a belief in a god as well, be it a manlike god or an energy.

    If left to themselves in meditation for a very long time, do you think an INTP and an INFP would arrive at a similar conclusion of the existence of god? Or do you think both personalities would veer off in completely different directions? In the end, does logic hold any difference over emotion?

    Are the conclusions of modern thinkers with the backing of math and science any less sophisticated than that of nomads?

  2. #2
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    I don't know, the deeper I get into yoga, the more and more I doubt the relevance of certain traits in alignment with personality theory.

    For example, the commonly held ridiculous notion that any "flash" of intuition or insight makes you an N...no, I think it makes a whole hell of a lot of females mistype as NFs though, because they haven't heard that many of the most "creepy psychic" people are actually ISFPs, because of a misunderstood, unconscious Ni that presents itself in ominous symbols that actually have something to do with the future (instead of Ni doms who have more conscious Ni and therefore develop coherent long-term visions) ...and that ESFJs have amazing people-reading skills, simply because of their attention to the details of body language and emotional expression.

    Intuition in the Jungian sense has less to do with the Psychic Eye Book Shoppe, and "I just knew he was the one!" and more to do with a preference for theory, brainstorming possibilities, etc.

    Same I think with conclusions about God. I mean it never ceases to amaze me that some groups of religious people figured things out centuries ago that scientists are just recently "proving." I want to go into this more when I am less tired (it's about my bed time) ... but the problem is the limits of the lens through which the person is looking, and people can shift their lenses...

  3. #3
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I know that Einstein subscribed to the idea of Spinozan god, but we don't know if he did it because he came to same conclusion on his own or because Spinoza (an outside source) simply presented an elegant idea that appealed to Einstein.

    Spinoza (and god) aside, one thing we know is that he highly objected to chance. To my mind also, "chance" is not a thing. I can't build a concept out of "nothing". Maybe that's something others would find equally unsettling as well. Even though he sparked off much of quantum theory/mechanics, he wanted an underlying model of the universe that could stastically demonstrate clear cause and effect, etc.. To Max Born, he said "God does not play dice." Maybe his rejection of chance ultimately led his mind to a "First Cause". I think this could appeal to INTPs as well, but maybe some make their peace with "chance". I think that's more of a Ni thing though..

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    Oh I also just want to mention here that I think that S doms who are N rejecting may be the biggest literalists; I think anyone with a developed N function (including ISxPs and ESxJs with the tertiary, like Jung himself for example) may eventually come to a less literal conclusion; how can I know this? Well, because there are a lot of non-literal religious people in the world, and they can't all fucking be INFPs and INFJs. I think perhaps the worst literalists are both N-rejecting (ISxJs and ESxPs) AND perhaps in many cases poorly educated.

    It also has to do with the difference between Eastern and Western thought; Western thinkers, whether religious or atheist, tend to think in either or, black and white, right or wrong, debate and compete types of terms. Western thinkers also over-emphasize the importance of logic now to the point of near absurdity, obscuring more subtle forms of thought. Eastern thought on the other hand is more subtle, emphasizes paradox and duality, as well as compromise and shades of gray.

    It also depends on the religion itself and how much it emphasizes a montheistic god, or perhaps takes an agnostic yet spiritual stance.

    Read about how Se types experience religious or spirituality in Jung's descriptions, it's really fascinating, usually tied to magical meaning projected on to physical objects (and I do this too, when I was younger I was inexplicably drawn to Catholic rites and paganism though I was raised Protestant Christian, and one of the biggest ways to unlock my mind more spiritually was to engage my body physically through yoga and I still do things like burn different colored candles and carry stones).

  5. #5
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    I am an INFP and I am an atheist. Whilst INTPs could likely rationalise God out of existence much easier than an INFP could the INFP does still have Te to adopt the external logical system which is more prevalent and one which they can value. But it swings both ways, one INFP could ask "man created this building and all these items around me whilst God made none. Does it mean there is no God?" Another one could state "this was all designed so I think everything else in the world must have at least been partially designed too." That's lousy inferior Te for you. I think most INFPs who have a religious belief would orientate more towards spiritualism (seeing the "soul" in the "machine".) On a different note I have known of religious INTPs so they aren't guaranteed atheist or agnostic belief.

    So an INFP and an INTP could come to the same conclusion about God or they could not. It's probably just as likely or unlikely as two INFPs or two INTPs coming to the same conclusion.

  6. #6
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I don't know, the deeper I get into yoga, the more and more I doubt the relevance of certain traits in alignment with personality theory.

    For example, the commonly held ridiculous notion that any "flash" of intuition or insight makes you an N...no, I think it makes a whole hell of a lot of females mistype as NFs though, because they haven't heard that many of the most "creepy psychic" people are actually ISFPs, because of a misunderstood, unconscious Ni that presents itself in ominous symbols that actually have something to do with the future (instead of Ni doms who have more conscious Ni and therefore develop coherent long-term visions) ...and that ESFJs have amazing people-reading skills, simply because of their attention to the details of body language and emotional expression.

    Intuition in the Jungian sense has less to do with the Psychic Eye Book Shoppe, and "I just knew he was the one!" and more to do with a preference for theory, brainstorming possibilities, etc.
    Yes, Jungian intuition is more like this, though brainstorming is more Ne, and "predicting" more Ni. Having intuitions certainly does not make one N. More accurately, it means one is probably using N, since everyone uses each of the four functions to some degree. It is also possible for other functions to combine in a result that looks like Ni/Ne, much as Te-Se can produce behaviors that look Fe but really are not. I suspect the S-F combination in SFJs works this way in understanding and predicting people.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #7
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    You can't ultimately disprove God, and neither can you ultimately prove that there is one.

    This is why, despite our great advance from nomad-stage superstition to the high-tech, rational world of today, the question of God still remains.

    So yes and no. Yes, we are better than our nomad ancestors, but no, we still haven't figured out this question once and for all.

    Personal input: I'm a theist INTJ. I should be in a museum.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    "Yeah, wisdom always chooses/These black eyes and these bruises"
    "Over the heartache that they say/Never completely goes away..."

  8. #8
    Senior Member WoodsWoman's Avatar
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    Proof disallows room for faith, just as ironclad rules negate the need for real relationship (give and take, conversation, etc.) between people.

    I'm an INFP and I believe in God. This God I found via Christianity and call myself a Christian, though some might not accept me as such. I do not live up to my own expectation of what I think I should be as His follower - I am a dark glass

    Can I prove God one way or another? No. Proof does not engender belief without faith, and that faith is a gift.

  9. #9
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    I would think feelers more likely to come to a poly/pantheist type of conclusion, and a thinker to an omnipotent/present type of deity.


    Feelers project diversity and what not while thinkers project their intellectual arrogance.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Chaotic Harmony's Avatar
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    I've always struggled with religion... I'm not sure if I'd call myself a polytheist or not, but I definitely have a hard time believing in only one deity. That being said, I think I'm probably more spiritual than religious. I tend to thing my Se is why I feel this way... I've never been good at the whole blind faith thing, I like to be able to see, hear, feel, smell, etc...


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