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  1. #81
    Gone Aesthete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    so you worship quantum fluctuation that happened during the big bang?
    I'm not fully sure I know what you mean. You're either stating that I have some sort of worship for quantum fluctuation for its creation of the universe or that the soul is a product of it.
    Great men are like eagles, and build their nest on some lofty solitude.

    Schopenhauer

  2. #82
    Gone Aesthete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    'Does the soul exist?' is the same kind of question as 'does information exist?'.

    At first we thought information was immaterial, quite like the soul. But now we know information is part of the movement to greater entropy and so is material. And so we suspect the soul is material as well.
    Information as a thing is a construct or a perception (or a conception) of something - it does not exist apart from being a statement about something that does exist. We cannot say the same thing about the soul in the strictest sense. However, I'd like to hear more about your thoughts on the matter.
    Great men are like eagles, and build their nest on some lofty solitude.

    Schopenhauer

  3. #83
    Gone Aesthete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I love Kant. I think his justification for (the traditional version of a transcendent) God is the best yet, as in it's the only way I would accept such a notion. So I can't rule it out because it would be impossible to do so.

    Also you should look into monism.
    Unfortunately, I've only gotten into philosophy recently, so I haven't had time to read his works. I have a copy of Critique of Pure Reason at home, which I'm planning to read after I finish my quick look through Kierkegaard (to whom I will return at a later time). Tell me more about his thought.

    Monism makes sense to me, but I'm not sure if our concept of individuality is limited to a definition bound in space and time, such that we would dismiss the existence of individuality beyond space and time because of space and time (a lot of "space and time" in this sentence!). Perhaps the individual could exist as some form of consciousness - my musings on the matter are rather vague, and a bit difficult to comprehend even for myself due to imminent restrictions - independent from phenomena.
    Great men are like eagles, and build their nest on some lofty solitude.

    Schopenhauer

  4. #84
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    As I've said elsewhere, type isn't the only factor determining whether someone's an atheist or a Christian, as just one example.

    Type is less relevant for what someone believes. It's more relevant for why they believe what they believe, or how they came to believe it.

    My interest in typology was actually reawakened when I realized that my initial understanding of what it was wrong. Typology is not a collection of stereotypes. You can't just say NT= nerd, NF = hippy, SP = jock/"cool people''. Not that there isn't significant overlap, but it's not the whole picture. Typology seemed more significant when I realized it had more to do with the way people process information.
    I think that there is at least some correlation between type and a belief in God though. I mean, how many INTP Christians do you know for God's sake? But, I get where you are coming from. What I was mainly saying is that different types employ various styles of coming to their religious conclusions.

  5. #85
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I think that there is at least some correlation between type and a belief in God though. I mean, how many INTP Christians do you know for God's sake? But, I get where you are coming from. What I was mainly saying is that different types employ various styles of coming to their religious conclusions.
    To be sure, there's a correlation between the types and certain attributes, like irreligiosity, but my point is that INTP Christians exist. It seems like they are Christian, however, in a very "INTP" kind of way.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  6. #86
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    To be sure, there's a correlation between the types and certain attributes, like irreligiosity, but my point is that INTP Christians exist. It seems like they are Christian, however, in a very "INTP" kind of way.
    I agree.

  7. #87
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I think that there is at least some correlation between type and a belief in God though. I mean, how many INTP Christians do you know for God's sake? But, I get where you are coming from. What I was mainly saying is that different types employ various styles of coming to their religious conclusions.
    Wouldn't this just be culturally related?

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  8. #88
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Wouldn't this just be culturally related?
    No. Kiersey even talks a great deal in his books about how many NT's are agnostic and atheists. If you don't believe me then take a look around, and look at how many threads have been made on this site as well as PerC on this topic. There is definitely a pretty good correlation there.

  9. #89
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    No. Kiersey even talks a great deal in his books about how many NT's are agnostic and atheists. If you don't believe me then take a look around, and look at how many threads have been made on this site as well as PerC on this topic. There is definitely a pretty good correlation there.
    Well, I'm not really a Keirsey fan as I think his view of typology entirely misses the point Jung was trying to make and he's simply ascribing behavior and traits in relation to personality rather than actual cognitive processes. A lot of the people I think Keirsey would consider NTs (I'm a perfect example) would actually not be NTs in a Jungian sense because cognitively, they do not favor T and N as their two preferred ego functions. It's even arguable that we will never truly develop and differentiate an auxiliary beyond our dominant so according to Jung, what we really are are just being Ni dominant type, Fe dominant type and so on, making Keirsey's temperaments (and also Myers-Briggs type labels) rather useless. I've seen this myself with ISFPs who for example really seem to favor Fi and Si as their two preferred ego functions rather than Fi and Se, just like I've seen people type as ENFP because they favor Ne and Fe as their two dominant functions (e.g. @Maybe) or INTJ with Ni and Ti (e.g. @flatlander). The only thing that really groups these people together with people of similar type are their dominant function e.g. Ni. I've seen a person who is most definitely an INTJ (Ni-Ti) type as INFJ because his feeling is extraverted despite it being unconscious and because function wise, it fits the system of Ni-Fe-Ti-Se than INTJ being Ni-Te-Fi-Se. He falls on the wrong side of the T-F axis. Yet funnily enough, his feeling is still undeniably closer to Fi logic than Fe, but he is sensitive to the emotional atmosphere and moods in other people like Fe types are stereotyped to be. So what gives?

    These people just have great difficulties trying to fit themselves into either system (aside Jung, since he only cares about your dominant and inferior function pair) and then there are people like me who express themselves almost more through their inferior than they do their dominant. I mean yes, in MBTI-land I'm undeniably an INTP. I'd score INTP on any MBTI test or close to (unless I'm extremely honest with myself which is difficult because I have a hard time telling if I truly make decisions based on feeling or thinking and it part depends on how the test delineates a preference towards thinking and feeling as I'm not a people-person so in this regard it's difficult for me to ever score remotely close to being an NF since I'm not a people-person) and my interests are closer to INTP interests (according to Keirsey) than an INFP despite that I'm ultimately a social scientist and I prefer humanist subjects over the natural sciences. I for example know a person who was an ENTJ according to Jung (Te-dominant, preference towards intuition as auxiliary over sensation) but typed as MBTI INTP because he is socially introverted and disorganized rather than stereotypically structured as many ENTJs are described to be.

    As an example, I'm actually a Jungian NF (my cognitive dominant function is Fi) and I'm an atheist but with great interest in religion. Most of all though, I see strong overlaps between Keirsey's types and enneagram. I for example think that it would be unlikely for many 5s to be religious (5 descriptions overlap a lot with the INTx types) because the belief in an omniscient and omnipotent deity (let's define god this way for simplicity's sake) would seem too urealistic for the avaricious 5-mind who themselves in a way would in fact desire godhood status through the achievement of omniscience. I think many 5s would struggle with the belief in god simply because on the one hand, the 5 mind would want there to be something more to this life and universe as a way to provide meaning since the 5 ultimately believes that our existences are meaningless, but on the other hand accepting god would mean that we accept that this all there is to know. God is the answer, and to the avaricious mind, I am not sure such a conclusion would feel satisfying. Not because I'm saying that a 5 cannot be religious but I find that it is more likely for the 5 to try to unveil the mysteries of the universe in order to connect to god (can think of many movies with this theme e.g. 2001: A Space Odyssey, Pi, Altered States...). If a belief in god exists, I think the 5 would desire to know if there's something more than god.

    Similarly, I see how a lot of Pe dominant types easily mistake themselves as 7s because Keirsey tends to stereotype Ne doms to be similar to 7s. Indeed, if you even study the psychobabble of 7s they seem to superficially think like Ne types do even if they really are Se types or something else entirely. Most of all though, I think it is relevant to ask why someone would choose to be religious or not as the answer to that question is more likely to indicate a person's type than whether they are religious or not. People can ultimately provide a wide variety of reasons why they would desire to be (dis)believers, and hearing these reasons reflect type much better overall since it reflects our cognitive thought processes.
    Last edited by Entropic; 03-19-2013 at 05:17 PM. Reason: Nesplosions rurined everything

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  10. #90
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The Big Band and Dark Energy

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    That's exactly the same thing, just seen from a different perspective.
    An explosion and an accelerating expansion of time and space are two different things.

    An explosion is cause by a force, or for believers, a First Force. But an accelerating expansion of time and space is sui generis, and is the very nature of time and space, and so has no need of a First Cause.

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