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  1. #51
    Junior Member Hetha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, it does seem to be. But critical thinking is taking faith seriously.

    Critical thinking starts with Socrates in Ancient Greece and was rediscovered in the Renaissance of Europe and fully flowered in the Western Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries. It is the glory of the West.
    I do agree. Socrates is one of my favorite philosophers when I studied philosophy. One of my projects in Humanities class,(a bonus assignment) was to apply the Socratic method to a complete stranger and gauge their unfiltered reaction to a question. Then we had to write something explaining what question we asked, and their answer/reaction to it. It made us realize how "not well" people took to Socrates, and why he was so controversial in his day. Loved it!
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  2. #52
    Junior Member Hetha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faceless Beauty View Post
    Yes! In my short lifespan and with the little knowledge I've gained so far, I'm starting to see that religion is more of a coping mechanism to deal with things such as death, a way to understand the world, and a way to form some sort of basic moral code for members of society to follow or something like that.
    Yes, and sadly, the holy texts I've read so far seem to endorse moral codes I don't agree with. The 21st century has already re-defined a lot of the moral codes so as to make many of them look primitive and brutal, backwards and downright immoral. I don't believe in "objective morality" either. Morality in my humble view is subjective and dynamic, and we can make a difference and redefine our world. We just simply need to make the effort.
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  3. #53
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I can see going on from there to teaching others how to sit in a diaper staring at a candle flame. That's about it.
    I guess you aren't a very spiritual person. Staring at the flame isn't the point, and wearing what you call a diaper isn't as silly as you think. Maybe you should try it some time and get out of your head for a bit. See what insights you come to without Ti.

  4. #54
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I guess you aren't a very spiritual person. Staring at the flame isn't the point, and wearing what you call a diaper isn't as silly as you think. Maybe you should try it some time and get out of your head for a bit. See what insights you come to without Ti.
    Yes, staring at a flame induces a trance, and so lights up a different part of the brain.

  5. #55
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Actually all religions don't tell you that at all, and it's debatable as to whether even the religions which say it meant it literally (as most Westerners interpret it), or rather a state of consciousness or being.
    I didnt meant that all religions says that. But just out of curiosity, which ones doesent?
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  6. #56
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    See I'm not sure about that. I do think consciousness arises from physical components, but a version of monism says that particles have both relational and intrinsic properties and that the relational properties are physical and the intrinsic properties are mental; so perhaps everything is both physical and mental. I'm not sure about it, but if it were true it would do a good job of solving the mind body problem and it's consistent in a roundabout sort of way with the wave particle duality property.

    So I think consciousness is a physical substance, indeed everything is- but there are different ways in which we conceptualize the physical which don't include a lot of things and which I think should. History has shown our definitions to be continually changing; in the time of Descartes people would not have thought electromagnetic fields were physical. (I don't know all of the science that existed at the time, but if this is incorrect you could easily pick out something else which illustrates the same principle.)
    Well, every particle known both is something, has effects on some other things and is effected by some other things. That thing that they are is the physical aspect of it, and the effects on/from them are not physical properties, but(dunno if this relational thing you said is referring to this) is the effect that the physical properties have when interfering with properties of other physical structure. I dont think that consciousness is a physical thing in itself but comes out of physical reactions, so its a cause of physical properties of certain type of neurons not a physical thing in itself. Basically if you take one neuron from the area where for example working memory is formed, its not conscious by itself. But if you add impulses to it that have a specific representation to it and let it send impulses to other neurons which also know what some specific impulse stands for and build a big construct out of these and also add different types of neurons from other areas and get things like conscious decision making to it and let those neurons effect back to working memory and other areas that send signals to working memory, you get a construct that works like consciousness.

    I really dont think that quantum physics is required for consciousness, except ofc keeping the physical structures working from which consciousness arises, but the idea which some people have that consciousness is a property of quantum physics is pretty far off imo.
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  7. #57
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The real divide is between those who are in love with critical thinking and those who are in love with belief.

    This morning, down at the Farmers' Market, I was talking to two Buddhists. And I voiced two cogent criticisms of Buddhism. Well, what a faux pas. The last thing Buddhism wecomes is critical thinking. They tried to maintain a benevolent attitude to me but it was plain they regarded me malevolently. But what they regarded with malevolence was critical thinking.
    Well, I kind of disagree with this, because you operate under the assumption that the truth you have arrived at is something which they too should value, despite you seeming to come from an atheist point of view. It doesn't mean they are not critical towards their faith but their critical thinking or what they critically ask themselves are not the kind of questions you are interested in. You reject the idea of their faith entirely, they must still accept certain tenets in order to believe.

    I honestly fail to see why one conclusion must ultimately be better than the other. If believing in Buddha gives them meaning in life who are you to question this meaning that they found as meaningless?

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  8. #58
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, staring at a flame induces a trance, and so lights up a different part of the brain.
    That doesn't sound very spiritual.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #59
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I guess you aren't a very spiritual person. Staring at the flame isn't the point, and wearing what you call a diaper isn't as silly as you think. Maybe you should try it some time and get out of your head for a bit. See what insights you come to without Ti.
    I've read books about the practice and found out that it takes years to gain proficiency at it. Also, it sounds like it would be very hard on my knees which hurt bad enough as it is. It also conflicts with the Western view that people don't get enough exercise in their daily lives.



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  10. #60
    Transient Faceless Beauty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hetha View Post
    Yes, and sadly, the holy texts I've read so far seem to endorse moral codes I don't agree with. The 21st century has already re-defined a lot of the moral codes so as to make many of them look primitive and brutal, backwards and downright immoral. I don't believe in "objective morality" either. Morality in my humble view is subjective and dynamic, and we can make a difference and redefine our world. We just simply need to make the effort.
    Right. Morality isn't really an objective thing either, and like you said is very dynamic. Just because people from thousands of years ago wrote some books about morals and things does not mean that it is 100% relevant to this very day. The major changes within some religions themselves over time is proof of this. Even though there are a few constants that are still somewhat applicable, values and needs of individuals changes with time along with technology and increased understanding of the world around them. Also, since these ideas are no longer confined to a specific region of the world, increased globalization is helping to forge new ideas about those texts. Even when some of these religions first started to spread, they were transformed and adapted to the values and cultures of regions they took hold of.
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