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  1. #31
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I love Kant.
    That's a rare statement to see, no doubt because it comes from a rare kind of individual. Most people, when they become aware of Kant, abhor him and his philosophy. It takes an uncommon and valuable type of mind to see where he's coming from.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #32
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    I believe in God, after a fashion. I suppose my Fi ties into the conception of God very closely. I believe that ultimately, everyone can be happy, if we all treated each other in accordance to some sort of innate conscience. The 'commandments' change relatively in accordance to the circumstances. I guess this is really just Ne informed Fi.

    In know plenty of INTPs who see God as a necessary conclusion, the 'first mover'. That's a very Ti concept.

  3. #33
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Why do you think its conscious? I mean consciousness is a physical phenomena(as everything else is) and not just any physical phenomena, but one that happens in brains, when the brains are constructed in very certain way.
    See I'm not sure about that. I do think consciousness arises from physical components, but a version of monism says that particles have both relational and intrinsic properties and that the relational properties are physical and the intrinsic properties are mental; so perhaps everything is both physical and mental. I'm not sure about it, but if it were true it would do a good job of solving the mind body problem and it's consistent in a roundabout sort of way with the wave particle duality property.

    So I think consciousness is a physical substance, indeed everything is- but there are different ways in which we conceptualize the physical which don't include a lot of things and which I think should. History has shown our definitions to be continually changing; in the time of Descartes people would not have thought electromagnetic fields were physical. (I don't know all of the science that existed at the time, but if this is incorrect you could easily pick out something else which illustrates the same principle.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    That's a rare statement to see, no doubt because it comes from a rare kind of individual. Most people, when they become aware of Kant, abhor him and his philosophy. It takes an uncommon and valuable type of mind to see where he's coming from.
    Really? I guess they don't understand it then, which is surprising because it seems pretty clear to me. He was a genius. He synthesized everything in a logically consistent way, and then elaborated on it based on sensible deductions, and ended up saying a lot of things I want to say only better. I studied him in my 17th and 18th century philosophy class, and I'm taking a bunch of other philosophy classes so I haven't gotten to read a lot of him, but everything he's said so far has made sense to me. What do you like about his philosophy?

  4. #34
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    See I'm not sure about that. I do think consciousness arises from physical components, but a version of monism says that particles have both relational and intrinsic properties and that the relational properties are physical and the intrinsic properties are mental; so perhaps everything is both physical and mental. I'm not sure about it, but if it were true it would do a good job of solving the mind body problem and it's consistent in a roundabout sort of way with the wave particle duality property.

    So I think consciousness is a physical substance, indeed everything is- but there are different ways in which we conceptualize the physical which don't include a lot of things and which I think should. History has shown our definitions to be continually changing; in the time of Descartes people would not have thought electromagnetic fields were physical. (I don't know all of the science that existed at the time, but if this is incorrect you could easily pick out something else which illustrates the same principle.)

    Really? I guess they don't understand it then, which is surprising because it seems pretty clear to me. He was a genius. He synthesized everything in a logically consistent way, and then elaborated on it based on sensible deductions, and ended up saying a lot of things I want to say only better. I studied him in my 17th and 18th century philosophy class, and I'm taking a bunch of other philosophy classes so I haven't gotten to read a lot of him, but everything he's said so far has made sense to me. What do you like about his philosophy?
    Kant will be more relevant to the study of modern philosophy. Kant has a foot in both the Enlightenment and Modern eras, and his influence can even be spotted in post-Modernist writings. Kant must be approached from the viewpoint of his predecessors, but also from contemporaries such as Emanuel Swedenborg.

    While Kant's aim was to revive metaphysics as both a science and a discipline, this only produced about five decades of fruitful philosophical pursuit. Kantianism is foundational to modern philosophy, but attempts were made early on to subvert this foundation, primarily Fichte.

    I like it because it makes sense.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    'Does the soul exist?' is the same kind of question as 'does information exist?'.

    At first we thought information was immaterial, quite like the soul. But now we know information is part of the movement to greater entropy and so is material. And so we suspect the soul is material as well.
    I was watching a film where a man was discussing the problem of free will in relation to science, and apparently much like the idea of God knowing our fate but us having free will, our lives are mostly governed by natural laws which are unavoidable, but we still have unique personalities.

    I've noticed a lot in my studies that scientists are just starting to "prove" things that certain groups of religious people already knew for centuries.

    This is particular impressive in the field of medicine, where even in Western medicine, doctors are going to have to back-track from a purely Western approach, because they're acknowledging the validity more and more of preventative medicine in things like massage and eating the correct foods, which is an ancient idea in the East, as well moving back toward more natural birthing practices for women (with some medical supervision) and the power of emotions and faith and meditation and belief upon the physical health.

    In the future, people will recognize the validity of East and West working together, and of science being the what and religion being the why. I sincerely believe this.

    Because when everything attempts to become too Westernized something is missing, women were having unnecessary C-sections, doctors weren't acknowledging the validity of natural medicine and the power of the mind at all, and so forth. It's only as we've come more into the 21st century that things are becoming more balanced.

    Eastern and Western thought are both necessary for the optimal state of humanity. Focusing too much on Western thought becomes ridiculously literal and black/white, right/wrong, divisive, and what many Easterners refer to as a wild imbalance of too much masculine energy.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    This doesn't seem to make sense to me. It only seems to work if you assert that Fi = emotion but Fi is a different entity to emotion. At best emotion is only one of numerous influencers.
    Yeah it's a completely different idea than pure emotion. All types have emotions, and T types can become very emotional about people telling them that they're wrong, or about things suddenly becoming what they see as irrational, etc.

    Fi is making value judgments by ethics and aesthetic and relational considerations from an internal judging system rather than something as simple as "emotions." All people have emotions.

    And if you always made decisions by raw emotion, that doesn't leave any room for reason. Fi is actually a rational function, it's just not logical.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    and religions tells you that you go to either hell or heaven or something in between.
    Actually all religions don't tell you that at all, and it's debatable as to whether even the religions which say it meant it literally (as most Westerners interpret it), or rather a state of consciousness or being.

  8. #38
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I was watching a film where a man was discussing the problem of free will in relation to science, and apparently much like the idea of God knowing our fate but us having free will, our lives are mostly governed by natural laws which are unavoidable, but we still have unique personalities.

    I've noticed a lot in my studies that scientists are just starting to "prove" things that certain groups of religious people already knew for centuries.

    This is particular impressive in the field of medicine, where even in Western medicine, doctors are going to have to back-track from a purely Western approach, because they're acknowledging the validity more and more of preventative medicine in things like massage and eating the correct foods, which is an ancient idea in the East, as well moving back toward more natural birthing practices for women (with some medical supervision) and the power of emotions and faith and meditation and belief upon the physical health.

    In the future, people will recognize the validity of East and West working together, and of science being the what and religion being the why. I sincerely believe this.

    Because when everything attempts to become too Westernized something is missing, women were having unnecessary C-sections, doctors weren't acknowledging the validity of natural medicine and the power of the mind at all, and so forth. It's only as we've come more into the 21st century that things are becoming more balanced.

    Eastern and Western thought are both necessary for the optimal state of humanity. Focusing too much on Western thought becomes ridiculously literal and black/white, right/wrong, divisive, and what many Easterners refer to as a wild imbalance of too much masculine energy.
    This is exactly what I think and have been thinking for years. I intend in my philosophical work to unite Eastern and Western philosophy. I think it's indicative of a problem that classes on Eastern philosophy are listed under the religious studies program. True it hasn't been "proven" by Western standards of proof, but there is a lot of scientific evidence out there which we haven't even bothered to look at, and I am firmly convinced that everything true in Eastern philosophy can be proven through Western means if done in the right way. Western thought needs to release its limitations and Eastern thought needs grounding.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    This is exactly what I think and have been thinking for years. I intend in my philosophical work to unite Eastern and Western philosophy. I think it's indicative of a problem that classes on Eastern philosophy are listed under the religious studies program. True it hasn't been "proven" by Western standards of proof, but there is a lot of scientific evidence out there which we haven't even bothered to look at, and I am firmly convinced that everything true in Eastern philosophy can be proven through Western means if done in the right way. Western thought needs to release its limitations and Eastern thought needs grounding.
    Much work in Western thinking has been started by flashes of insight or intuitive modes of understanding. It beats sitting around in a diaper staring at a candle for hours while life passes them by.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #40
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Much work in Western thinking has been started by flashes of insight or intuitive modes of understanding. It beats sitting around in a diaper staring at a candle for hours while life passes them by.
    It's the same. Insight comes from all directions, and people do all sorts of things while life passes them by.

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