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  1. #21
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    Antonio Damasio has written that emotion underpins every action and belief, and that it is a critical factor in all decision making. If this hypothesis is true (and I believe it is), then the distraction distinction between Fi and Ti is a misleading [one].
    You think that because your Ti is weak.

    This is a good example of a Ti-Dom and a Fi-Dom reflecting on the same material, (I assume you refer to "Descartes Error") finding much to agree with, yet extrapolating very different conclusions therefrom.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    Antonio Damasio has written that emotion underpins every action and belief, and that it is a critical factor in all decision making. If this hypothesis is true (and I believe it is), then the distraction between Fi and Ti is a misleading.
    This doesn't seem to make sense to me. It only seems to work if you assert that Fi = emotion but Fi is a different entity to emotion. At best emotion is only one of numerous influencers.

  3. #23
    Gone Aesthete's Avatar
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    On a related topic, an INTP friend and I had a discussion on the existence of the soul. We basically reached the same conclusion (though I think mine was more independent musing while he read quite a bit of Kant and expanded on his own), but how we delivered it was different - he gave a scientific report while I gave it a somewhat mystical value.

    As for myself, I don't believe in a creator god - that is, a being beyond nature that I worship because he/she/it created nature - but that doesn't mean I think such a god (vague term) doesn't exist. Rather, my beliefs are similar to those of the Gnostics. In either case, I've stopped debating with myself over the existence of a god or gods, and am now trying to figure out whether there is such a thing as an individuals or if the only thing separating us is time and space.
    Great men are like eagles, and build their nest on some lofty solitude.

    Schopenhauer

  4. #24
    jump sleuthiness's Avatar
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    In response to Aesthete, mods- merge this into the telepathy thread. One body.

    thinking of you

  5. #25
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthete View Post
    On a related topic, an INTP friend and I had a discussion on the existence of the soul.
    'Does the soul exist?' is the same kind of question as 'does information exist?'.

    At first we thought information was immaterial, quite like the soul. But now we know information is part of the movement to greater entropy and so is material. And so we suspect the soul is material as well.

  6. #26
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    i think that god is old undifferentiated concept which basically puts together causality in the external world and unconscious parts of the self. i dont think its no coincidence that some primitive people think they see god when they take hallucinogenic mushroom, that angels tend to speak to prophets in dreams and that when you die basically all your neurons activate(basically overloading the conscious parts and causing things like losing sense of time that comes along with it) and religions tells you that you go to either hell or heaven or something in between.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  7. #27
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthete View Post
    On a related topic, an INTP friend and I had a discussion on the existence of the soul. We basically reached the same conclusion (though I think mine was more independent musing while he read quite a bit of Kant and expanded on his own), but how we delivered it was different - he gave a scientific report while I gave it a somewhat mystical value.

    As for myself, I don't believe in a creator god - that is, a being beyond nature that I worship because he/she/it created nature - but that doesn't mean I think such a god (vague term) doesn't exist. Rather, my beliefs are similar to those of the Gnostics. In either case, I've stopped debating with myself over the existence of a god or gods, and am now trying to figure out whether there is such a thing as an individuals or if the only thing separating us is time and space.
    so you worship quantum fluctuation that happened during the big bang?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  8. #28
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthete View Post
    On a related topic, an INTP friend and I had a discussion on the existence of the soul. We basically reached the same conclusion (though I think mine was more independent musing while he read quite a bit of Kant and expanded on his own), but how we delivered it was different - he gave a scientific report while I gave it a somewhat mystical value.

    As for myself, I don't believe in a creator god - that is, a being beyond nature that I worship because he/she/it created nature - but that doesn't mean I think such a god (vague term) doesn't exist. Rather, my beliefs are similar to those of the Gnostics. In either case, I've stopped debating with myself over the existence of a god or gods, and am now trying to figure out whether there is such a thing as an individuals or if the only thing separating us is time and space.
    I love Kant. I think his justification for (the traditional version of a transcendent) God is the best yet, as in it's the only way I would accept such a notion. So I can't rule it out because it would be impossible to do so.

    Also you should look into monism.
    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    so you worship quantum fluctuation that happened during the big bang?
    That's probably how it happened!

    As for me: in addition to what I've said before, I think everything exists as some sort of a network of consciousness, and energy can be concentrated in thought forms to create gods, which we can interact with. I don't really believe in them other than that.

    Although I think it's funny that the person I seem to agree with most in my philosophy classes is an INTJ Christian, because we're both monists. Currently he's an idealist/monist and I haven't decided what category my version of it falls into, or if I need to create a new one.

  9. #29
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    Antonio Damasio has written that emotion underpins every action and belief, and that it is a critical factor in all decision making. If this hypothesis is true (and I believe it is), then the distraction between Fi and Ti is a misleading.
    I believe this is true, but I don't think the conclusion necessarily follows. Our actions and beliefs are influenced by emotion on a deeply unconscious level, because we form beliefs and impressions about the world and people from our emotional reactions to experiences, and these accumulate in the unconsciousness as stored memories with associated patterns of feeling. At least this is what I think makes sense. But Fi isn't really about emotion; it's a qualitative evaluation of experience in terms of one's relationship to the environment, whereas Ti is a personally detached evaluation based on the structure of reality. This is why they both form systems- Fi fits the self into a structure of personal relationships and Ti fits the mind into the structure of existence. Both can be emotional (and usually in different ways); it's just that emotions are more relevant to the quality of relationships than they are to logical systems and so Fi pays more attention to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You think that because your Ti is weak.

    This is a good example of a Ti-Dom and a Fi-Dom reflecting on the same material, (I assume you refer to "Descartes Error") finding much to agree with, yet extrapolating very different conclusions therefrom.
    I'm not sure what it is you are referring to which is mistaken and why, but perhaps what I've said above can underline an argument. No doubt Fi and Ti would view material from different perspectives and come to conclusions with different emphases.
    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    If left to themselves in meditation for a very long time, do you think an INTP and an INFP would arrive at a similar conclusion of the existence of god? Or do you think both personalities would veer off in completely different directions?
    I think they would veer off in opposite directions but in the end arrive at the same place, because the thing they are exploring is a circle. INTP seeks to model the objective and INFP the subjective. They both want to discover the inner workings of a system, but they focus on different systems, which are complimentary parts of a whole.

    They would probably have different semantics for the concepts they use and different motives, and attach different meaning to what they discover, but it's highly likely they would have more on which to agree than disagree.
    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    In the end, does logic hold any difference over emotion?
    I don't believe logic and emotion need to be in conflict, and in any case, emotion and Fi are two different creatures.
    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Are the conclusions of modern thinkers with the backing of math and science any less sophisticated than that of nomads?
    In my opinion they are the same, from different perspectives, with different information. Humans are pretty much the same over time. Modern science and thinking and such gives greater illumination of the microcosm because of our increased powers of empirical observation, and greater complexity of thought due to a more complex world.

    Also, really great posts @Marmotini! You've raised a lot of points I've been trying to make for awhile. Glad we agree.

  10. #30
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    As for me: in addition to what I've said before, I think everything exists as some sort of a network of consciousness, and energy can be concentrated in thought forms to create gods, which we can interact with. I don't really believe in them other than that.
    Why do you think its conscious? I mean consciousness is a physical phenomena(as everything else is) and not just any physical phenomena, but one that happens in brains, when the brains are constructed in very certain way.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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