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Thread: Humility

  1. #11
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    False humility and low confidence (which can appear to be humility, or may be generously referred to as humility) are probably much more common than actual true humility. To hold humility for any significant amount of time is difficult. It demands a rarer sort of personality. It might be (just guessing here) that the conflation made between humility and low confidence is due to the dunning-kruger effect (possibly incorrect usage of dunning-kruger effect, is that ironic?). In other words, so many people do not have the capacity for true humility that they do not understand what it looks like. Thus, since humility is a popular word/idea in our culture we have labeled something that looks like humility, to ignorant eyes, as humility itself. In the same manner we label brash and loud people as self-confident and secure, when they actually might be the opposite.

    I wonder how many people, for x lengths of time, perceive the world from a point of "true humility". Do you think its common? Where can it be found, in your opinion?
    Hmm, I'm not sure... I'm thinking maybe certain cultures could have this as more of a popular value? Muslim women? (Not that I'm a big proponent of some of their views towards women, but...) Seems like everything the US (and now other nations) stand for is the opposite. Like, we're pursing our own happiness, having pride in our own values and our own individualism- the brighter you shine the better you are.... It may not be that we are incapable of becoming humble- it may be that the ideals laid out for us from birth become so ingrained in us that we can't fathom being happy any other way. Giant leap of faith to think the other way.
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  2. #12
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Hmm, I'm not sure... I'm thinking maybe certain cultures could have this as more of a popular value? Muslim women? (Not that I'm a big proponent of some of their views towards women, but...) Seems like everything the US (and now other nations) stand for is the opposite. Like, we're pursing our own happiness, having pride in our own values and our own individualism- the brighter you shine the better you are.... It may not be that we are incapable of becoming humble- it may be that the ideals laid out for us from birth become so ingrained in us that we can't fathom being happy any other way. Giant leap of faith to think the other way.
    If muslim women do often have true humility (which I would question), its a good example of humility as a character flaw.

    Anyway I'm off to bed.
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  3. #13
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    It can be a virtue, or rather, part of one. Pride and humility should be mixed together to make one virtue we have no name for. Too much of either makes a flawed personality.
    The mixture of pride and humility is simply accurate self-knowledge. The balance is to understand our strengths and weaknesses, how small we are in the big scheme of things, but how much we as one person can still do. Pride and arrogance generally involve overestimating our worth or capability, or simply being ostentatious about it. Underestimating ourselves is just as bad, though, since it will give us an excuse to contribute less to the world than we are capable of.

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I think humility is the realization that you're not the only thing in existence that matters. People who are humble often work toward ends that benefit not just themselves, but others as well. Doing that makes you a part of something bigger than yourself. In a sense, that requires a certain sort of trust, in other people, in yourself, and that when the action you take grows bigger than you and goes beyond your individual control that things will turn out well. Taking action towards goals makes you believe in them more firmly and so when you work in something that you trust that is larger than yourself you have a clear mind. The test of course comes when you hit a brick wall. Then, it can be difficult to maintain tranquility, trust, and because of that we feel we must rely on on ourselves. This cuts us off from others and breeds arrogance because everything becomes about you.
    Selflessness, or at least working for the benefit of others, does not require humility. Trusting simply that "things will turn out well" is a dangerous strategy, and rests on the expectation that others will come along to bail you out when you cannot follow through on what you started. This is not humble, it's irresponsible.
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    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The mixture of pride and humility is simply accurate self-knowledge. The balance is to understand our strengths and weaknesses, how small we are in the big scheme of things, but how much we as one person can still do. Pride and arrogance generally involve overestimating our worth or capability, or simply being ostentatious about it. Underestimating ourselves is just as bad, though, since it will give us an excuse to contribute less to the world than we are capable of.
    Youve given the thought I had felt myself working towards. Isnt it terribly NT to discard the fuzzy notions of the two virtues and instead sing praises for accuracy? I think their is gold in dem their fuzzy mines, but deep down Im with you. Virtues lead from understanding objectively, perceiving the whole and positions relatively. Pride or over-humility can detract from this.

    I do still think we can call the accurate positions states of humility. They are humble in comparison to the lack of humility present in most people generally. Even if they are, in reality, the true and accurate, and therefore should mark the center of the pride/humility line. Words are defined by the perceptions of the majority. If we are using new definitions, we need to say so.
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

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    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Not too long ago I read a post on a psychotherapist’s blog about the difference between self esteem and narcissism. I can’t find it now or I’d link it, because I think it’s germaine to the op. I’m reading his book though (same author, Joseph Burgo)- it’s about unconscious defense mechanisms- and narcissism is about needing extra indication outside the self of one’s worth because internally the sense of worth is so depleted/low; a person may give off the appearance of self esteem, but genuine self esteem is about not needing to perceive oneself as somehow ‘better’ or ‘more worthy’ of praise or attention than others. One of the points made in the blog post is that narcissists often perceive themselves as simply having a lot of self esteem- that they often aren’t conscious of shame they feel about themselves, projecting ‘worthlessness’ into others instead- but the more one needs to feel they’re somehow above or more important than others is the extent to which they’re actually compensating for hidden feelings of low self worth in themselves.

    So I guess I’d define humility as having the kind of inner strength in which we don’t require others to stroke our ego, and/or we don’t need circumstances in the external world around us to constantly reflect back a high self worth. And so, imo, the ‘ideal picture’ of humility is someone who is completely competent yet also has absolutely let go of the urge to control the opinions/judgments of others- even in regard (if not especially so) to opinions/judgment which reflect directly back on that person. I’m reminded of the Jung quote “There is no coming into consciousness without pain…. People will do anything, no matter how absurd, in order to avoid facing their own soul.” Humility is (maybe the most important) prerequisite for this; we can’t let go of unconscious attachments (e.g. identity) so long as we are not willing to accept the pain of them possibly not being true. [So furthmore- I guess I think it’s possible to take pride in being humble, but I’d add the caveat that as soon as that pride becomes an identity attachment that we *need* to avoid emotional pain then it’s no longer 'humility' per se.]


    eta, worth mentioning: I'm not sure unfettered humility is such a good thing though- we're not doing ourselves or anyone else in society any favors when we fill the role of 'whipping boy'.
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    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    I do still think we can call the accurate positions states of humility. They are humble in comparison to the lack of humility present in most people generally. Even if they are, in reality, the true and accurate, and therefore should mark the center of the pride/humility line. Words are defined by the perceptions of the majority. If we are using new definitions, we need to say so.
    That definition works, until one lands in a situation where one knows one is better able than the others involved to do something that needs to be done. The "humble" course of action is to stay in the background, continuing to follow along with everyone else, since after all, one's estimation might be wrong. I have always found it better to step forward, speak up, and put my abilities to work for the group. This doesn't seem consistent with humility, but then I place more value on getting things done, especially when others stand to benefit.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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