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  1. #111
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    I think it comes down to this: science has a culture.

    It is not a religion unto itself, although it does address questions similar to what religion addresses (such as "where do we come from?", "why are we here?", and even in a non-answer sort of way, "what is our purpose?").

    Scientists are not unbiased perfect folk. Objectivity is held above most values in the scientific culture, but that doesn't mean a scientist is objective; just that they strive to be (and not all do).

    Scientific theory, as a result, is never perfect; it is a constant process of refinement, overturning and replacement and although we seem to know more than when we started.

    Can science disprove God? If that was the OP's real question, I don't think they've studied with the rabbi's. ;-) The more educated you are the less you believe science and religion conflict. So says the Pastoral Ministry major at a fully accredited university (theology and the study of biblical manuscripts are a part of my coursework).
    Love is the point.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopherRed View Post
    I think it comes down to this: science has a culture.

    It is not a religion unto itself, although it does address questions similar to what religion addresses (such as "where do we come from?", "why are we here?", and even in a non-answer sort of way, "what is our purpose?").

    Scientists are not unbiased perfect folk. Objectivity is held above most values in the scientific culture, but that doesn't mean a scientist is objective; just that they strive to be (and not all do).

    Scientific theory, as a result, is never perfect; it is a constant process of refinement, overturning and replacement and although we seem to know more than when we started.

    Can science disprove God? If that was the OP's real question, I don't think they've studied with the rabbi's. ;-) The more educated you are the less you believe science and religion conflict. So says the Pastoral Ministry major at a fully accredited university (theology and the study of biblical manuscripts are a part of my coursework).
    Letting go of God requires moral courage, and although physical courage is common, moral courage is rare.

  3. #113
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Letting go of God requires moral courage, and although physical courage is common, moral courage is rare.
    Please do go on. I would hate to launch out without proper context. :-)
    Love is the point.

  4. #114
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopherRed View Post
    It is not a religion unto itself, although it does address questions similar to what religion addresses (such as "where do we come from?", "why are we here?", and even in a non-answer sort of way, "what is our purpose?").

    Scientists are not unbiased perfect folk. Objectivity is held above most values in the scientific culture, but that doesn't mean a scientist is objective; just that they strive to be (and not all do).

    Scientific theory, as a result, is never perfect; it is a constant process of refinement, overturning and replacement and although we seem to know more than when we started.

    Can science disprove God? If that was the OP's real question, I don't think they've studied with the rabbi's. ;-) The more educated you are the less you believe science and religion conflict. So says the Pastoral Ministry major at a fully accredited university (theology and the study of biblical manuscripts are a part of my coursework).
    Science does try to answer questions like "where do we come from" and "how did we (and the universe as we know it) come to be here". It does not address what our purpose is, nor whether there is a God. These questions do not lend themselves to objective analysis. The more educated one is, the more one understands which questions science can answer, and which require the subjective consideration of religion or spirituality. Most scientists have no problem participating in life on both levels, as appropriate. Scientific "culture" values not only objectivity but also creativity, critical thinking, honesty and integrity, and even humility in more ways than one. Most religious or spiritual systems share some of these; few share all.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopherRed View Post
    Please do go on. I would hate to launch out without proper context. :-)
    Well, letting go of God is like letting go of our mother's hand in a busy supermarket - it is scary and disorientating.

  6. #116
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Well, letting go of God is like letting go of our mother's hand in a busy supermarket - it is scary and disorientating.
    So...you see God in a maternal context. You see God as somebody (or something), if I can infer, that we depend on (indeed cling to) for guidance, protection, support and sustenance; someone, if I understand your point correctly, that we should outgrow, and come to sustain ourselves, guide our own decisions and protect ourselves. Is that accurate?
    Love is the point.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopherRed View Post
    So...you see God in a maternal context. You see God as somebody (or something), if I can infer, that we depend on (indeed cling to) for guidance, protection, support and sustenance; someone, if I understand your point correctly, that we should outgrow, and come to sustain ourselves, guide our own decisions and protect ourselves. Is that accurate?
    Sure, God is not dead, God is Dad.

  8. #118
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    I have always assumed the whole "science is a religion" thing has to do with many people taking scientific fact on faith. For example, I know very little about science. But when I'm told something is scientifically proven by a few high profile scientists, I automatically believe them, without researching their claims. I take it on faith that it's true. Planets having their own gravitational fields? I am pretty hazy on how that works exactly. But I trust Newton knew what he was talking about. I'm not proud of it, but it's what I do. And it's what a lot of people do.

    I know this isn't the same thing, per se, but this attitude towards science reminds me of the old days, where religious officials were presumed to be very wise and learned about God and that God ordained everything. The peasants just trusted the church, because they were uneducated. Meanwhile, the monks and bishops were very literate and educated. To a pig farmer, all their weird explanations for why God does this or that, probably sounded fairly reasonable, who was he to contradict some guy who has spent his whole life studying the subject? Plus those Cathedrals are awfully impressive.

    A lot of folks today trust scientists in the same way. Luckily, scientists supposedly adhere to the scientific method (they are, scientists after all), so at least we're putting our faith in something reliable. They're not just rich Italian dudes demanding gold, because God is hungry. But we still seem to take the facts on faith and get dazzled by all the high tech mumbo jumbo. It certainly sounds impressive.

    I'm not saying science is a religion! I just don't like it when my fellow ignoramuses (ignorami?) arrogantly praise science and bash religious folk as living in the dark ages, when they have no idea how science works themselves. I guess it's better than religious folk who know nothing about religion bashing science (which is also a problem in this world), but it's still hypocritical.

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    I have always assumed the whole "science is a religion" thing has to do with many people taking scientific fact on faith.
    As a general principle we know that faith is not based on evidence and reason, just as we know that science is based on evidence and reason.

    So anyone knowing this general principle does not take science on faith.

  10. #120
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    So anyone knowing this general principle does not take science on faith.
    I apologize, I'm not expressing myself clearly.

    I did not mean to say scientific facts are a leap of faith. I should have said scientific "fact". If you make bullshit look sciencey and academic, many people can't tell the difference. We take it on faith that the findings in question, were discovered using the scientific method. But we never really check. All the scientists have to say is: "Yup, we scienced it. Trust us." And many people will just assume they did their due diligence.

    Look at all the damage Jenny McCarthy did with all her BS about autism and vaccinations. The assurance that there was some science there somewhere, and that some doctors agreed, was enough to fool countless people.

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