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  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    I think you can be existentialist and still spiritual at the same time... and not in the Kierkegaard way...
    Expand?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #32
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    At the risk of sounding totally foolish, ignorant, and stupid:

    Trying to prove we have spirits is like trying to prove that we love someone.
    You either believe it, or you do not.
    Some things cannot be proven because we do not fully understand them. We just believe, intuit, and know.
    Surely you can understand.
    Totally.

    But it leaves me in quite a conundrum.

    Especially because I lived for many many years in the zone of religious belief, where I felt forced to believe something I had no proof for yet people insisted was true.

    Eventually I came to a point where I decided the truth was more ambiguous than people let on and there's no way we can know these things for sure. Meanwhile I had spent many years around people making truth claims spuriously that were just faith claims (and they were judging those who disagreed as incorrect), so I'm sensitive to it.

    So when someone makes a faith claim as if it were self-apparent or "true" in a more objective fashion, I can't help but just clarify (by asking for "proof") that it really is just a firmly held belief but not something that one can assume is inherently obvious or true.

    Which is the long way of saying, I know you can't prove it, I don't expect you to prove it, and I just wanted it to be clear that it can't be proven... and once that is agreed on that it's just one's personal belief, then things are cool.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #33
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    I still don't know what people mean when they say spiritual.
    wails from the crypt.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    What do you feel about things you N tells is true? Do you discount the things that cannot be objectively proven?

    Are messages from your N treated differently if the are about spiritual belief than they are about other subjects?

    Ilah

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Totally.

    But it leaves me in quite a conundrum.

    Especially because I lived for many many years in the zone of religious belief, where I felt forced to believe something I had no proof for yet people insisted was true.

    Eventually I came to a point where I decided the truth was more ambiguous than people let on and there's no way we can know these things for sure. Meanwhile I had spent many years around people making truth claims spuriously that were just faith claims (and they were judging those who disagreed as incorrect), so I'm sensitive to it.

    So when someone makes a faith claim as if it were self-apparent or "true" in a more objective fashion, I can't help but just clarify (by asking for "proof") that it really is just a firmly held belief but not something that one can assume is inherently obvious or true.

    Which is the long way of saying, I know you can't prove it, I don't expect you to prove it, and I just wanted it to be clear that it can't be proven... and once that is agreed on that it's just one's personal belief, then things are cool.

  5. #35
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilah View Post
    What do you feel about things you N tells is true? Do you discount the things that cannot be objectively proven?
    Neither.
    You can neither count or discount N.
    That's the point.

    It's a source of information that you have to tag as "suspect" because it can't be validated as strongly as others. (Although Owl might disagree with me, based on his comments about the material world being equivalently illusory... again something I accept philosophically but see as impractical in terms of daily life.)

    Are messages from your N treated differently if the are about spiritual belief than they are about other subjects?
    Nope.

    Spiritual beliefs that have a tangible tie-in get more credibility because they can be validated... just as my intuitions about other things (like how a system works, what's going on in a social group, the motivations of a particular individual, etc.) all have more credibility if I can tie them into some sort of framework of evidence.

    [This is why for many years I accepted many of my religious beliefs... because I thought they had been somewhat validated by experience and research. Then the more I looked around and studied various research, the more I realized the religious beliefs might not be as supported as I had thought... and i realized that some of my experiences could be viewed in other ways. So my N beliefs lost some power and/or had to change, because the support had weakened.]

    Again, cross-validation is key. Otherwise you realistically have to tag "N" ideas as "unvalidated."

    Note: You can choose to act on them as if they are real, but you still need to be clear about whether they've been corroborated from outside evidences... especially if you are trying to convince someone else of their validity.

    I am very very picky about people arguing as if something is "true" when it's merely something they "believe." I want information tagged correctly in a discussion.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #36
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Its an anchor that helps adjust a persons center of gravity to deal with life. To have a system that that gives people some sort of comfort to exist in the world without feeling empty and being spiritual helps to do that.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Everyone is born a spirit, or baby Buddha. (most) Children are molded by society to being spiritless.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilah View Post
    For me it all comes down to the N. Spirituality is just something I intuit. Certain places or objects "feel" spiritual. By feel I don't mean emotionally, it is more of a "knowing" than a "feeling." it is extremely strong. It goes beyond logic or emotions. It cannot be explained it just is.
    Simply believing that something is true does not make it so. A paranoid schizophrenic "knows" that the world is out to get him, but the strength of his conviction obviously has no bearing on the actual truth.

    Shouldn't spiritual "gut feelings" be subjected to the same test of validity?

  9. #39
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    People are spiritual because their purpose has awoken inside them...they know what to do, what will happen, and wheree they are going.

  10. #40
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Resurrection.

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