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View Poll Results: When?

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35. You may not vote on this poll
  • It already has in spirit if not in numbers

    5 14.29%
  • In the next 100 years

    4 11.43%
  • In the next 1,000 years

    3 8.57%
  • In the next 10,000 years

    0 0%
  • In the next 100,000 years

    0 0%
  • In the next 1,000,000+ years

    0 0%
  • Never

    23 65.71%
  • whenever the singularity occurs

    0 0%
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Results 71 to 80 of 94

  1. #71
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    @UniqueMixture - look, i've seen this mentality before, whenever there's a "born again atheist", someone who rebelled against a religious background, then there's commonly a deep seeded disdain towards religion, but that doesn't continue on: the kids who are raised without religion, me and plenty of others, will rarely be able to relate, sympathize with your disdain but not able to emphasize.

    do i dislike religious intervention in politics? sure, just like any other ideology i disagree with.
    do i dislike religious wars? of course, but i also dislike wars for oil & natural resources.
    if anything, religions tend to be exotic interesting things for me, something i experimented with in my youth.

    why? because when you don't grow up with it, you don't have much of relationship with religion to rebel against. for me, i view people practicing religion the same way i view people going to yoga classes, "awesome for them". i even flirt with it - on average i'd say i'm agnostic most of the week, atheist on Mondays, and Gnostic a few times a year.

    my point is: your disdain comes from your own past relationship with religion, it's not inherited in being a non-theist. so for you to project that disdain on the whole non-theist "movement" is simply incorrect.

  2. #72
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    @UniqueMixture - look, i've seen this mentality before, whenever there's a "born again atheist", someone who rebelled against a religious background, then there's commonly a deep seeded disdain towards religion, but that doesn't continue on: the kids who are raised without religion, me and plenty of others, will rarely be able to relate, sympathize with your disdain but not able to emphasize.

    do i dislike religious intervention in politics? sure, just like any other ideology i disagree with.
    do i dislike religious wars? of course, but i also dislike wars for oil & natural resources.
    if anything, religions tend to be exotic interesting things for me, something i experimented with in my youth.

    why? because when you don't grow up with it, you don't have much of relationship with religion to rebel against. for me, i view people practicing religion the same way i view people going to yoga classes, "awesome for them". i even flirt with it - on average i'd say i'm agnostic most of the week, atheist on Mondays, and Gnostic a few times a year.

    my point is: your disdain comes from your own past relationship with religion, it's not inherited in being a non-theist. so for you to project that disdain on the whole non-theist "movement" is simply incorrect.
    I actually think what you're describing is more common and changing the world more than Dawkins, new atheism et al

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I actually think what you're describing is more common and changing the world more than Dawkins, new atheism et al
    exactly that! the rise of atheism doesn't mean a growing disdain towards religion, if anything, it means atheism is growing of age, and their are increasingly more 2nd and 3rd generation non-theists who have little to no personal relationship with religion at all, neither negative or positive.

    militant atheism isn't in the core, it's the fringe, the boarders area where the newcomers walk. if anything, i dislike dawkins and maher a lot more then any disdain i have for religion. i see them and think "what the f' do they think they are doing, putting 'us' back in the world-view faction game?"

    non-believers have a good political alliance with the concept of liberty, i don't care if religions exist as long as none of them are pushed down my throat, and since religions don't want each other's faith pushed down their own throat, we have the same shared interests. as far as i'm concerned - "we have a good thing going. let's not ruing that" is the appropriate response.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    exactly that! the rise of atheism doesn't mean a growing disdain towards religion, if anything, it means atheism is growing of age, and their are increasingly more 2nd and 3rd generation non-theists who have little to no personal relationship with religion at all, neither negative or positive.

    militant atheism isn't in the core, it's the fringe, the boarders area where the newcomers walk. if anything, i dislike dawkins and maher a lot more then any disdain i have for religion. i see them and think "what the f' do they think they are doing, putting 'us' back in the world-view faction game?"

    non-believers have a good political alliance with the concept of liberty, i don't care if religions exist as long as none of them are pushed down my throat, and since religions don't want each other's faith pushed down their own throat, we have the same shared interests. as far as i'm concerned - "we have a good thing going. let's not ruing that" is the appropriate response.
    I dont share that positive outlook, I see the development as just another aspect of the deterioration of all that was really good and bequeathed to the present by the past.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont share that positive outlook, I see the development as just another aspect of the deterioration of all that was really good and bequeathed to the present by the past.
    o, i didn't think you would. and i wasn't including you in on it, if anything i got the impression that your of christian faith (just at first impression - i'm not sure if i actually read you saying so anywhere).

    i do fundamentally disagree with you - life is full of problems which we never quite know what combination of minds can solve, and so there's always a strong advantage in having a large diversity of mindsets. as such, the setting that allows the most divergence of mindsets tends to provide the larger diversity of solutions, and a higher likelihood one would apply. by providing the best opportunities for different mindsets to coexist and still be able to communicate to one another, we gain the advantage as a society.

    that means that the "old ways" if you will might get to play the center stage, but they don't get eliminated either, neither do they get to eliminate each other.

  6. #76
    Riva
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    Religion will slowly diminish as we have observed throughout human history but prayers will always be a part of humanity.

    When the day comes you know your father can't help you anymore, your mother can't make you feel better and when all hope fails most turn to prayers or addictive substances or both.

    I just hope psychotherapy will replace religion.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    o, i didn't think you would. and i wasn't including you in on it, if anything i got the impression that your of christian faith (just at first impression - i'm not sure if i actually read you saying so anywhere).

    i do fundamentally disagree with you - life is full of problems which we never quite know what combination of minds can solve, and so there's always a strong advantage in having a large diversity of mindsets. as such, the setting that allows the most divergence of mindsets tends to provide the larger diversity of solutions, and a higher likelihood one would apply. by providing the best opportunities for different mindsets to coexist and still be able to communicate to one another, we gain the advantage as a society.

    that means that the "old ways" if you will might get to play the center stage, but they don't get eliminated either, neither do they get to eliminate each other.
    I'd like to believe what you are saying is true but I've never found it to be true in practice.

    Diversity of opinion is no substitute for knowledge, it all sounds very good as a straight forward opinion piece or discussion point but try it out in practice, in a team meeting or any other forum at which decisions are needed, leadership provided etc.

    I'm not really interested in "old ways", whether that's considered positively or negatively its usually not accurately, but sociological or psychological objectivity which most people dont possess or feel like developing.

    I think there's value in all the world religions but I think that Judahism, Christianity (particularly Roman Catholicism and some of the better criticisms of the same, internal and external) are traditions I identify with the most and which are the most valuable as a part of the overall cultural backdrop which I think matters.

  8. #78
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    @UniqueMixture - look, i've seen this mentality before, whenever there's a "born again atheist", someone who rebelled against a religious background, then there's commonly a deep seeded disdain towards religion, but that doesn't continue on: the kids who are raised without religion, me and plenty of others, will rarely be able to relate, sympathize with your disdain but not able to emphasize.

    do i dislike religious intervention in politics? sure, just like any other ideology i disagree with.
    do i dislike religious wars? of course, but i also dislike wars for oil & natural resources.
    if anything, religions tend to be exotic interesting things for me, something i experimented with in my youth.

    why? because when you don't grow up with it, you don't have much of relationship with religion to rebel against. for me, i view people practicing religion the same way i view people going to yoga classes, "awesome for them". i even flirt with it - on average i'd say i'm agnostic most of the week, atheist on Mondays, and Gnostic a few times a year.

    my point is: your disdain comes from your own past relationship with religion, it's not inherited in being a non-theist. so for you to project that disdain on the whole non-theist "movement" is simply incorrect.
    yeah, probably. it seems like child abuse to me. like saying having an alcoholic father is just a "different kind of lifestyle" or something
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  9. #79
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    This is a question I ask myself on occasion. Although I'm an atheist on occasion a minor, ineffable experience can occur in my consciousmind which could be considered distantly similar to a religous experience. I'm pretty sure it is correlative to when the rational sceptic part of my brain is slacking off and I conclude that it (and any religious belief in general) occurs when certain areas of the brain cannot override another and thus cannot rationalise such a notion out of existence before it can reach full bloom and erroneously convince the person they are making a connection with something or somewhere else as a result. I'm also willing to assert that the supposed correlation between some thinking types and lack of religious belief is also causal with the idea that the parts of the brain prone to these experiences are less developed than the parts which can destroy them in the first instance and that there is an inverse correlation for some feeling types.

    All the above is pure introspection however so take it as you see fit. It does not answer the question on how many people feel "God" or people who adopt religion simply becase it is traditonal or culturally valued (probably both have their origins in influential Fi and Ni using types who saw no need to understand why their beliefs are what the are and in time this grew to swallow up Si and Fe) though it does answer the question why an educated man can still be religious as the education alone would not create enough new neuron connections to fight the fire so to speak in a mortal lifetime.

    If we are talking about a 60%-40% split in favour of atheism (not secularism) then that is probably possible via conventional education methods and sufficient resources and communication of ideas (AKA protect the internet!) however I forsee a greater percentage would require genetic engineering to greater levels. Engineer increased levels of creativity but logical thought too. Make it a final, literal victory for science against religion. You could end up with atheists, agnostics and religious movements which have immense intellectual mechanics - with a high investigation on the nature of creation rather than the desire to feel "closeness" or commit acts of charity with delusions of afterlife.

  10. #80
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What is your theory, then?
    I think in general intjs seclude themselves from certain experiences and so there is less pressure on them to find a way of thought that is accepting of diametrically opposed views. Not always the case, but introverts in general do this (ie when something feels overwhelming they back off and take time to integrate the experience for themselves, but what if they were forced to keep interacting? What would happen then?)
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

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