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Question. How can a rational person be theistic and not believe in fairies?

greenfairy

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Why do you believe in an immaterial nonphysical God-being, which can't be observed through scientific investigation, but you dismiss the idea of (mostly) immaterial, (mostly) nonphysical nature spirits called fairies which can't be observed through scientific investigation?

Kind of a rhetorical question, but if there's some logical justification in your mind please state it.

If I say I believe in fairies can you prove me wrong? Can I employ those same methods to prove you wrong?
 

RaptorWizard

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I believe there could be certain forces of energy flowing throughout nature, but I wouldn't give them anthropomorphized qualities, but even assuming they have them, are they good?

Personally, I'm a bit skeptical of this kind of stuff, as back in the old days, people dreamed they were held captive by fairies, and now people claim to be victims of alien abduction!

These spiritual forces clearly manifest to our own delusion and detriment, as they haven't done anything revolutionary to help man heal his planet, yet they mess with our minds.
 

KDude

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Some people who professed Christianity continued believing in fairies for some time (they thought of them as demons).

That's kind of off the point though.

Others wouldn't believe in fairies because their existence was tied to unexplained phenomena that, at this point, aren't a concern on people's minds (fairies for example were agents of trickery and malice for some). Now that people aren't as superstitious about "trickery", they lost interest in explaining the cause of it. When it comes to gods, the domain is much larger than fairies (gods are usually involved in the act of all creation, life, the universe, etc). People are still interested in those things, and in turn, the causes behind them. As long as the question remains, the answers will be over the place.
 

Il Morto Che Parla

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Why do you believe in an immaterial nonphysical God-being, which can't be observed through scientific investigation, but you dismiss the idea of (mostly) immaterial, (mostly) nonphysical nature spirits called fairies which can't be observed through scientific investigation?

Kind of a rhetorical question, but if there's some logical justification in your mind please state it.

If I say I believe in fairies can you prove me wrong? Can I employ those same methods to prove you wrong?

Because we as humans don't understand the reason or laws within which our universe came into existence and operates, and in fact conventional logical falls down at that point, as shown by quantum physics. But we do understand the physical and logical laws within this universe, which discount the existence of the "supernatural" in the kind of sense you mean.
 

Randomnity

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Maybe the idea of god is really general, so it's easier to believe in "some power" overseeing the universe, whereas fairies are a quite specific description.

Plus, a lot of people aren't able to imagine a world that does its thing without an overseer to guide it, whereas fairies are relatively purposeless, and aren't really needed to "explain" any confusing phenomena.
 

ptgatsby

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A lot of the arguments for God would not reduce to mythical creatures - first mover and so forth come to mind immediately.
 

Rasofy

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Rationality alone has its limits but, if fairies did exist and were more than cute beings who aren't able to do anything useful for humanity, I think the world would be much more fair and cooperative.

And if they do exist and are able to do something useful for humanity, then they are doing a terrible job, so there's little reason to care about their insignificance.
 

greenfairy

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Because we as humans don't understand the reason or laws within which our universe came into existence and operates, and in fact conventional logical falls down at that point, as shown by quantum physics. But we do understand the physical and logical laws within this universe, which discount the existence of the "supernatural" in the kind of sense you mean.

So next question: is God supernatural? If so its existence is discounted.
Maybe the idea of god is really general, so it's easier to believe in "some power" overseeing the universe, whereas fairies are a quite specific description.

Plus, a lot of people aren't able to imagine a world that does its thing without an overseer to guide it, whereas fairies are relatively purposeless, and aren't really needed to "explain" any confusing phenomena.
This is a psychological motivation, which though probably correct, is not a logical justification for the argument for a God like thing's existence.
Rationality alone has its limits but, if fairies did exist and were more than cute beings who aren't able to do anything useful for humanity, I think the world would be much more fair and cooperative.

And if they do exist and are able to do something useful for humanity, then they are doing a terrible job, so there's little reason to care about their insignificance.

Possibly true as well, but once again this is a motivation for a belief, not a justification for it.

So I have more of a use for fairies than God. By your reasoning my belief is equally justified.
A lot of the arguments for God would not reduce to mythical creatures - first mover and so forth come to mind immediately.

Depends on how you define mythical creatures. If you mean mythical as being created in human minds as part of myth, then many would argue that God fits that description. It's kind of begging the question. But you might be on to something depending on how you frame it. I'd be interested in further explanation. I'm familiar with Descartes's ontological argument. Although I'm still not sure this holds because someone could conceivably attribute all those properties to fairies.

Good, getting closer.

Edit: Interesting fact- for the early Irish many gods were fairies.
Some people who professed Christianity continued believing in fairies for some time (they thought of them as demons).

That's kind of off the point though.

Others wouldn't believe in fairies because their existence was tied to unexplained phenomena that, at this point, aren't a concern on people's minds (fairies for example were agents of trickery and malice for some). Now that people aren't as superstitious about "trickery", they lost interest in explaining the cause of it. When it comes to gods, the domain is much larger than fairies (gods are usually involved in the act of all creation, life, the universe, etc). People are still interested in those things, and in turn, the causes behind them. As long as the question remains, the answers will be over the place.
Interesting explanation. I agree a lot of people used them to explain things they couldn't explain; but the same could be said for God. We use God essentially for everything we can't explain. The difference is that (as people above have indicated) people have more of a use currently for a belief in God than in fairies. Actually, before Christianization belief in fairies was much more than an explanation for the unexplainable. The early Irish saw them as ancestors of their race, just as some Viking mythology told of gods being ancestors of the Norse.
 

KDude

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You're asking people to justify beliefs? How about if they brandished an axe and stated "Because I said so." That's the best option.

There's no way to justify a belief. All anyone can do here is talk about motivations. Not justification. If there was a way to prove it, then it wouldn't be a belief.
 

Within

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Being rational has as little to do with it as being ruled non-rational motives. Actually they are one and the same. It's more of an issue of the force of ones will to overturn implemented structures of ideas, as well as the thought of rationale leading you towards the realization that we're an irrelevant flame burning in the nothingness of space. Sometimes it's rational to put aside that rationality in order to gain some form of peace, that's what I've gained from conversations with a few theists. I still find it craven, even though completely understandable.
 

Il Morto Che Parla

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[MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION] - no, it isn't discounted. I explained why in that same post you quoted. HE would be creator of the universe and not exist 'within' it.

Just ask yourself, we apply normal laws of science to our daily experience in this universe, and they work. But they contradict themselves when they try to explain existence itslef.

2 different levels of philosophy.
 

Randomnity

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This is a psychological motivation, which though probably correct, is not a logical justification for the argument for a God like thing's existence.
How is it not logical? Unexplained phenomenon --> search for explanation --> "god", or science (or a hybrid, I suppose). Fairies don't have a similar pathway, so it makes sense that fewer people would think that they exist. Motivation IS justification, when it comes to religious (etc) beliefs....

I mean, it's not logical in the sense that you can form a mathematical proof, but that applies equally to all supernatural beliefs (god, fairies, flying spaghetti monster, etc), pretty much by definition. None of them are "logical", or scientific.
 

greenfairy

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I mean, it's not logical in the sense that you can form a mathematical proof, but that applies equally to all supernatural beliefs (god, fairies, flying spaghetti monster, etc), pretty much by definition. None of them are "logical", or scientific.
Exactly my point. You can't very well argue that God's existence is more rationally justified than fairies.
[MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION] - no, it isn't discounted. I explained why in that same post you quoted. HE would be creator of the universe and not exist 'within' it.

Just ask yourself, we apply normal laws of science to our daily experience in this universe, and they work. But they contradict themselves when they try to explain existence itslef.
So if God created nature then God is separate from nature, i.e. super-natural. Unless god and nature are the same thing. In which case you're a pagan. So if one supernatural thing exists, there's no reason another couldn't exist, except that you're just assuming that God created fairies, which not everyone believes.
2 different levels of philosophy.
Maybe, if so I haven't gotten there yet. Please elaborate on which school/level of philosophy this is based on.
Being rational has as little to do with it as being ruled non-rational motives. Actually they are one and the same. It's more of an issue of the force of ones will to overturn implemented structures of ideas, as well as the thought of rationale leading you towards the realization that we're an irrelevant flame burning in the nothingness of space. Sometimes it's rational to put aside that rationality in order to gain some form of peace, that's what I've gained from conversations with a few theists. I still find it craven, even though completely understandable.

True. So essentially what people have been saying is that belief in God is not based in reason, and it is justified because 1) people have a use for it and 2) it gives them peace. Well, I could say the same about fairies, and those same people would assert that my belief should be based in reason (which it actually is), making them intellectual hypocrites.
 

Coriolis

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God's existence may not be more objectively supported than that of fairies, but rationality is not the same thing. The statement "It is irrational to describe Cinderella as a spoiled brat." makes perfect sense though it pertains to an imaginary (fictional) person, because even the fantastic can be held to a certain internal consistency.

So, to answer the OP: every person has beliefs about topics and questions that go beyond what can be objectively studied. These beliefs are necessarily subjective, informed by the person's values, understanding, and life experiences. For some people, the subjective world view formed in this way is consistent with the existence of fairies; for others it is not.
 

Il Morto Che Parla

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[MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION]

No. Like I said, we apply within the universe, the laws of science which we know to govern it internally.

However these laws by definition cannot explain the existence itself of the universe, as shown by quantum physics.

I hope you are making a point for atheism rather than actually arguing the existence of fairies, lol.
 

Beorn

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I don't believe in them (or at least ponder their existence very often) for the same reason that atheists don't (or shouldn't) believe in them; they do not fit within my comprehensive worldview. It has nothing to do with proving or not proving their existence.
 

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Belief is not about proving points or being right or wrong.

That is why belief is not for me, because I am a major bigot. But I urge others not to be a bigot and also believe in something. The two really don't mix. Leave the bigotry to apatheists like me! :>
 
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