Question. How can a rational person be theistic and not believe in fairies?

[ptgatsby]

I think it depended. In a lot of tribal cultures myths were understood partly to explain/describe actual things, but also to symbolically explain truths.

True enough, I wasn't very clear on that. The secular non-guiding approach (rationalism or empiricism) is still new, I'd say.

Note: to reiterate, the question was "how" not "why"; although understanding why is helpful.

Ah, just to answer this: Because humans are rationalizing creatures, not rational. Ultimately we believe in something then justify. Because of this top-down approach, we get all sorts of inconsistencies in our beliefs. I'd go as far as to say that we are all guilty of this. It's really hard for us to adjust our opinions "rationally" after the fact.

No false equivalence implied, but given that we are on a board talking about MBTI and Enn, we are not significantly different. Nor is being a skeptical champion any better in this context.

 

[greenfairy]

Ah, just to answer this: Because humans are rationalizing creatures, not rational. Ultimately we believe in something then justify. Because of this top-down approach, we get all sorts of inconsistencies in our beliefs. I'd go as far as to say that we are all guilty of this. It's really hard for us to adjust our opinions "rationally" after the fact.

I hadn't thought of that! But I'm sure that's most of it.

No false equivalence implied, but given that we are on a board talking about MBTI and Enn, we are not significantly different. Nor is being a skeptical champion any better in this context.

Yeah, fair enough.

Hi, my name is jon and I believe in God. I don't believe in fairies.

Wow, that was easy.

Ok, you're entitled to your opinion. But do you reject the idea as being less rational than the idea of God?

Kind of Joseph Campbell's point.. we don't live in a tribal culture now, and therefore lack myth (or lack a grasp on it). His deal was to get people in touch with myths again, but ones that transcended the local/tribal (in his mind, there's no way to get back to the older ones per se. That ship has flown).

edit: Wait, I mean ship has sailed. I'm watching too much science fiction lately.

Interesting. I agree, our culture doesn't have myths anymore and that's why it's hard to understand the way of thinking. We (Americans) have Native American mythology, but most people aren't really aware of what it is; that would be a good thing for a lot of people to explore.

 

[Orangey]

I'm sure some religious folks of the traditional variety probably feel more rational simply because of the force of their history and tradition. It's much easier to feel secure in one's beliefs if people have been believing that shit for a large portion of human history than it is if, say, I decided that I literally believed bite-sized chupacabras came to me in my sleep every night to dictate my dreams, which no one believed...ever.

 

[Lark]

[MENTION=4212]Peguy[/MENTION] Oh yeah. I see it now. And I agree.

 

[WALMART]

[MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION]


My answer was an incredibly simplified approach to this. My initial reaction to the question you asked was quite thought-provoked. They are both relative absurdities to me, but someone has explained Why belief in God is a more favorable approach than belief in fairies. Fairies do not imply purpose, they could be as natural as any alien species I could think of. God is a bit more superstitious, more supernatural, and implies a general purpose to existence.


For the record, I don't believe anything that exists has an inherent purpose. Just imitating other's thoughts.

 

[greenfairy]

[MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION]


My answer was an incredibly simplified approach to this. My initial reaction to the question you asked was quite thought-provoked. They are both relative absurdities to me, but someone has explained Why belief in God is a more favorable approach than belief in fairies. Fairies do not imply purpose, they could be as natural as any alien species I could think of. God is a bit more superstitious, more supernatural, and implies a general purpose to existence.


For the record, I don't believe anything that exists has an inherent purpose. Just imitating other's thoughts.

Ok, that makes some sense. I know a lot of people subscribe to this way of thinking, that purpose is an underlying principle of reality, or at least necessitates some sort of a cause.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleology

I don't believe in them (or at least ponder their existence very often) for the same reason that atheists don't (or shouldn't) believe in them; they do not fit within my comprehensive worldview. It has nothing to do with proving or not proving their existence.

Then you are intellectually consistent.

 

[sprinkles]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleonomy

Teleology or teleonomy? You decide.

 

[UniqueMixture]

Isn't the question more like, "How can a rational person believe in fairies?"

 

[Mole]

Fairies, angels, devils and gods come into existence when we suspend our disbelief.

We suspend our disbelief by letting our critical mind go to sleep for a while and waking up our imaginative mind.

We suspend our disbelief when our mother reads, "Peter Pan", to us before we go to sleep. And Peter Pan flies in the window.

We suspend our disbelief when we go to the movies and it all makes sense.

And we suspend our disbelief when we go to church and worship our god.

In fact the suspension of disbelief underlies all art, culture and religion.

 

[Cellmold]

Fairies, angels, devils and gods come into existence when we suspend our disbelief.

We suspend our disbelief by letting our critical mind go to sleep for a while and waking up our imaginative mind.

We suspend our disbelief when our mother reads, "Peter Pan", to us before we go to sleep. And Peter Pan flies in the window.

We suspend our disbelief when we go to the movies and it all makes sense.

And we suspend our disbelief when we go to church and worship our god.

In fact the suspension of disbelief underlies all art, culture and religion.

I agree. Although sometimes the critical mind thinks it understands more than it actually does or is capable of.

This is not a negative or a positive though, just an observation like your own.

 

[WheresMyBunnies]

Why do you believe in an immaterial nonphysical God-being, which can't be observed through scientific investigation, but you dismiss the idea of (mostly) immaterial, (mostly) nonphysical nature spirits called fairies which can't be observed through scientific investigation?

Faith is to be of use to a person: based on deductions about reality as much as belief in something beyond our own subjective nature.

Therefore:

f I say I believe in fairies can you prove me wrong?

No

Can I employ those same methods to prove you wrong?

No

 

[Lark]

It's funny that people can think critically about the so called "existence of God" but they cant do the same about the economy and distribution of wealth.

 

[greenfairy]

It's funny that people can think critically about the so called "existence of God" but they cant do the same about the economy and distribution of wealth.

Yes, that would be nice! Humans really aren't generally very rational.

Isn't the question more like, "How can a rational person believe in fairies?"

Proving my point. I think it's more rational than being religious. Prove me wrong.

 

[Coriolis]

were talking about humans here. we are irrational creatures. a rational human is an oxymoron. the intellectualism of issues, objective processing of information into logically sound response are contextualized by the fact we are still living, breathing, barely functioning animals. from what i've seen during my short life, all people have moments or behavior which contradictory to their beliefs, truths - humans are not robots. logic is limited in humans. and i can understand when those limits are reached for someone to leap into faith. i, however, am agnostic.

Yes, all humans make mistakes in using and applying logic. To say we are not rational because of this makes as much sense as saying Albert Pujols is not a baseball player because he doesn't always get the out and his batting avg is far from unity.

Ah, just to answer this: Because humans are rationalizing creatures, not rational. Ultimately we believe in something then justify. Because of this top-down approach, we get all sorts of inconsistencies in our beliefs. I'd go as far as to say that we are all guilty of this. It's really hard for us to adjust our opinions "rationally" after the fact.

If this is so, the difficulty lies primarily in the all-too-common reluctance to do so. Once undertaken with an open mind (i.e. assumptions identified and preconceptions abandoned), it is relatively straightforward to do so.

Interesting. I agree, our culture doesn't have myths anymore and that's why it's hard to understand the way of thinking. We (Americans) have Native American mythology, but most people aren't really aware of what it is; that would be a good thing for a lot of people to explore.

Not only do we not have myths, we do a poor job of using ritual.

 

[Mole]

our culture doesn't have myths anymore.

When we live inside a myth, it becomes invisible.

For instance, if we are American, the myth of Americanism is entirely invisible.

And if the myth is invisible, the means of propagation, i.e., propaganda, is also invisible.

In fact the myth of Americanism has the greatest and most successful propaganda system the world has ever seen. And it is called Hollywood and advertising.

 

[ptgatsby]

If this is so, the difficulty lies primarily in the all-too-common reluctance to do so. Once undertaken with an open mind (i.e. assumptions identified and preconceptions abandoned), it is relatively straightforward to do so.

I believe it to be the way the human mind works. We process information through our emotional centers before they are passed to our "rational" minds; further than that, there is no rational voice driving us, only a set of heuristic processes that sit below awareness. Most of what passes for rational thought is a rule-based consensus on what should be. In a (sub-)culture in which it is social acceptance comes from being "rational", we do not become more rational intrinsically, only that our irrational filter is geared about being "rational". People develop a code around how they should act and that code drives our decision making (and interpretation of the world).

Which isn't to say I disagree with you, only that I don't believe it is as simple as "reluctance"; there are huge social and cultural pressures that shape the way we think. There is a lot to the argument against anti-intellectualism (ie: in the states, you get a much more polarized view of intelligence, education and so forth. This actively shapes sub-culture norms to the point of actually changing the way these divisions, often drawn on economic lines, shape the people in them.)

 

[Mole]

The Rituals of Americanism

Not only do we not have myths, we do a poor job of using ritual.

When we live inside a myth, it becomes invisible. It is only when we stand outside the myth, does it become visible. So the myth of Americanism is invisible to Americans but visible to Australians.

And just as the myth of Americanism is invisible to Americans, so the rituals of Americanism are also invisible. Hey, you only have to 'take me to the ballgame' to immerse me in a ritual of Americanism.

But there are so many rituals of Americanism, I feel embarrassed to enumerate them to you, an American.

 

[Coriolis]

When we live inside a myth, it becomes invisible. It is only when we stand outside the myth, does it become visible. So the myth of Americanism is invisible to Americans but visible to Australians.

And just as the myth of Americanism is invisible to Americans, so the rituals of Americanism are also invisible. Hey, you only have to 'take me to the ballgame' to immerse me in a ritual of Americanism.

But there are so many rituals of Americanism, I feel embarrassed to enumerate them to you, an American.

I didn't say Americans had no rituals. Read again.

 

[Mole]

I didn't say Americans had no rituals. Read again.

Hey, we are talking about fairies and you want to have an argument with me.

Well, you said,

Not only do we not have myths, we do a poor job of using ritual.

So I said, rather than not having myths, you live inside a myth called Americanism which is invisible to you.

And now I say, rather than doing a poor job at ritual, you are masters of ritual, whether its 'take me to the ballgame' or the never ending stream of revenge movies from Hollywood. Why, just this morning on the page of my newspaper was a picture of a young, healthy American women waving an assault rifle above her head at a public rally for that great American ritual, enshrined in your Constitution, 'the right to bear arms'.

But the list of great American rituals goes on and on. I can only think you are interpreting the word 'ritual' to mean something archane from a traditional spoken society. But open your anthropological eyes and look around you and see how successful you are at ritual today.

 

[Coriolis]

And now I say, rather than doing a poor job at ritual, you are masters of ritual, whether its 'take me to the ballgame' or the never ending stream of revenge movies from Hollywood. Why, just this morning on the page of my newspaper was a picture of a young, healthy American women waving an assault rifle above her head at a public rally for that great American ritual, enshrined in your Constitution, 'the right to bear arms'.

But the list of great American rituals goes on and on. I can only think you are interpreting the word 'ritual' to mean something archane from a traditional spoken society. But open your anthropological eyes and look around you and see how successful you are at ritual today.

We are masters at ritual, just as we are masters at food. Our ritual is the equivalent of fast-food: ubiquitous, cleverly packaged and sold, but with limited nutritional value. This is what I mean by doing a poor job at it. We do not make focused and deliberate use of it to aid and enrich our lives (even when we think we do).