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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    We are masters at ritual, just as we are masters at food. Our ritual is the equivalent of fast-food: ubiquitous, cleverly packaged and sold, but with limited nutritional value. This is what I mean by doing a poor job at it. We do not make focused and deliberate use of it to aid and enrich our lives (even when we think we do).
    Forgive me for continuing the argument, but you live in the midst of it. Why do you think you can see it?

  2. #82
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Forgive me for continuing the argument, but you live in the midst of it. Why do you think you can see it?
    But surely your position could be extended to any culture and it's rituals? If that is the case how could anyone see their own rituals?

    And if no one can see their own rituals, why then would anyone be able to understand or be expected to understand the points of someone outside who is presenting these rituals? Following on from this; what then would be the point of showing people something they are incapable of seeing?

    If it is worth showing to them, then they are not incapable.

    Also if this is not applicable to just any country, (which of course you have not said but im anticipating a thought), then it is a product of a skewed bias towards a singular one, in which case the validity of the view is lessened.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Why do you believe in an immaterial nonphysical God-being, which can't be observed through scientific investigation, but you dismiss the idea of (mostly) immaterial, (mostly) nonphysical nature spirits called fairies which can't be observed through scientific investigation?
    Theists believe their existence is reliant upon the existence of God. If we exist than God must, too, exist.

    This reliance is not the case for fairies.


    Also, a question to the very many of you who said that human beings are not rational. What would you say of an irrational human being who says that human beings are not rational?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ehcriktic View Post
    Also, a question to the very many of you who said that human beings are not rational. What would you say of an irrational human being who says that human beings are not rational?
    This is a paradox. If an irrational man says humans aren't rational, then humans on their highest form would be rational, since a man who is irrational obviously must have flawed perceptions on the matter, though this irrational human, though he may in comparison to all other life on Earth be rational would, at least in comparison to the highest forms of humans, be irrational, kind of like in Einstein's theory of relativity, where absolute categories and definitions are all subjective and based upon points of reference, hence the irrational could be seen as rational from another angle.

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    In other words, rationality isn't binary.

  6. #86
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    When we live inside a myth, it becomes invisible.

    For instance, if we are American, the myth of Americanism is entirely invisible.

    And if the myth is invisible, the means of propagation, i.e., propaganda, is also invisible.

    In fact the myth of Americanism has the greatest and most successful propaganda system the world has ever seen. And it is called Hollywood and advertising.
    Well that's kind of true; it's just not a myth in the traditional sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by ehcriktic View Post
    Theists believe their existence is reliant upon the existence of God. If we exist than God must, too, exist.

    This reliance is not the case for fairies.
    Yeah ok, so creation/causation argument again. Which I think is weak, since you could make a better argument for Nature being the creator and the Universe creating itself (and what created God? Did s/he create him/her/self?); but nevertheless answers the question about what people think is a rational justification.

    Quote Originally Posted by ehcriktic View Post
    Also, a question to the very many of you who said that human beings are not rational. What would you say of an irrational human being who says that human beings are not rational?
    It is a true observation from many points of view. Someone who is irrational most of the time can make true observations. Just as an unintelligent person can recognize both intelligent and unintelligent people. And if it's not true it is a matter of opinion, and anyone can have an opinion.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    (and what created God? Did s/he create him/her/self?)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAG08ptsAj0

    The First Cause is called such for a reason. One can also go by Aristotle's description of God as "the unmoved mover". Otherwise you have infinite regress. The only real alternative then is to argue for an eternal universe(and even then that wouldn't necessarily prove a problem for theism).

  8. #88
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Forgive me for continuing the argument, but you live in the midst of it. Why do you think you can see it?
    Because I can and do. I recognize what you are describing, and have seen many other like examples. The more one sees, the more one becomes able to see, by learning what to look for.

    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    In other words, rationality isn't binary.
    Rational thought without accurate observations is as useless as observational skills without the ability to apply reason.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #89
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAG08ptsAj0

    The First Cause is called such for a reason. One can also go by Aristotle's description of God as "the unmoved mover". Otherwise you have infinite regress. The only real alternative then is to argue for an eternal universe(and even then that wouldn't necessarily prove a problem for theism).
    Yeah I'm familiar with the infinite regress. I guess an eternal universe is the only solution, which is pretty much the way I see it. The only way I can't see that being a problem for the God idea is if God and the eternal universe are the same thing. I don't believe in a first cause. The problem with the argument is that if we are positing a first cause, then we are at the same time positing a causal chain, which has an arbitrary starting point; if it has a starting point, presumably it has a finishing point. And if it doesn't, then it goes infinitely in one direction; if it goes infinitely in one direction it essentially goes infinitely in the other direction, depending on a continuous future reference point. It's kind of non-cohesive. I mean, you're basing the argument on the universality of causation, but coming to "everything has a cause- except this one thing," which makes "everything has a cause" not true. If you believe in non-causality at all, you don't really need a first cause.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    But surely your position could be extended to any culture and it's rituals? If that is the case how could anyone see their own rituals?
    Quite so.

    For example, we can't see the universe because we are inside the universe. So the universe is invisible to us. We can infer properties of the universe, but it remains forever unseen.

    To generalise, this means that any environment is invisible, for when we are in an environment, we can't see it from the outside.

    So Australia is invisible to me as American is invisible to you.

    And as print is becoming the content of the electric media, like right in front of us now, so print is becoming visible but the environment of the electronic media is invisible.

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